HL Deb 16 March 1982 vol 428 cc563-8

5.47 p.m.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER in the Chair.]

Clause 1 [Prohibition of use of gill nets]:

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 1:

Page 1, leave out from beginning of line 5 to ("if") in line 7.

The noble Lord said: I have put down a number of amendments to this Bill, and before I move them one by one may I take the opportunity of acknowledging the help that I have received from the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, and his office. Most of these amendments are more or less of a drafting nature, although, as I shall explain, some of them have a slight content. They are all aimed at making the Bill clearer and simpler and even, on balance, shorter.

Amendment No. 1 has the effect of removing some of the savings provisions which are contained in the words that it is proposed to omit. I made the point at Second Reading that it seemed important in making changes within the Bill that there should be no invalidation of previous legislation. I am advised that the present Bill can he regarded as free-standing and that, if enacted, the effect of the existing law will not be weakened. So it seems to follow that the opening words of Clause 1 are redundant. I therefore propose that they should be omitted. I beg to move.

Viscount Thurso

I am glad that the view is being taken that this is what is called a free-standing Bill and that it will be able to stand on its own feet. I welcome the removal of the somewhat ambiguous phrases with which the Bill started. Therefore, I feel that we should support the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, in his endeavour to tidy up the start of the Bill.

Lord Ross of Marnock

This was one of the points which I made on Second Reading and I am very glad that the noble Lord has responded so quickly, speedily and sensibly to the point which was made. I do not want to rumble on. Mind you, I could. I am sorry that the Minister of State has fled the field. He probably spoke for far too long and has gone away to have a rest. This is an amendment which we really must support.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 2:

Page 1, line 11, after ("for") insert ("or taking").

The noble Lord said: This is a drafting amendment to maintain consistency with line 9 of the Bill. It has a precedent in the 1951 Act. An important aspect of any legislation is its enforceability. The amendment aims to make it easier to enforce the legislation. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 3:

Page 1, line 13, leave out ("£1,500 and") and insert ("the statutory maximum and on conviction on indictment to a fine and, in either case,").

The noble Lord said: It will be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak to Amendments Nos. 6 and 15 with this amendment. This is a little bit more than a drafting amendment. Taken together, these three amendments are designed to bring the penalties for offences under the Bill into line with what I understand is the current thinking on fines. This amendment introduces some flexibility into the way that this is operated. There is a £1,000 fine on a statutory conviction or an unlimited fine on indictment. With this newer thinking about the legislation, the fines will also effectively be indexed against inflation under the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 [Regulation of nets]:

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 4:

Page 2, line 4, leave out ("in the course of fishing for") and insert ("for the purpose of fishing for or taking").

The noble Lord said: This amendment goes with Amendment No. 2. Again it ensures consistency with the provision of Clause 1, line 9. It contains also a minor amendment to improve drafting clarity. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 5:

Page 2, line 7, leave out ("in contravention of") and insert ("by means of a net which does not comply with").

The noble Lord said: This is a drafting amendment to improve clarity. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 6:

Page 2, line 10, leave out ("£1,500 and") and insert ("the statutory maximum and on conviction on indictment to a fine and, in either case,").

The noble Lord said: I spoke to Amendment No. 6 with Amendment No. 3. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 [Enforcement. 1951 c.26]:

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 7:

Page 2, line 18, at beginning insert ("Section 38 of the Tweed Fisheries Act 1857 (apprehension of offenders) and").

The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 7 is by way of a paving amendment for Amendment No. 16. These are technical and legal drafting niceties. This amendment is one of several designed to deal appropriately with the fact that offences created under this Bill will be so created in the whole of the Tweed and need to be appropriately dealt with in those parts of the Tweed which are outwith Scotland. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 8:

Page 2, line 21, leave out ("that Act were") and insert ("the said Act of 1951 included").

The noble Lord said: This is a drafting amendment to make clear that the statutory provisions applied are not changed in their original form but are extended to include references to offences under the Bill. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 9:

Page 2, line 22, leave out ("(except paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of subsection (1) thereof)").

The noble Lord said: This amendment is in response to a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, on Second Reading who wished to ensure that water bailiffs had the power to examine any dam, fixed engine or obstruction, et cetera, the power to stop and search any boat which is used in fishing or when there is reasonable cause to suspect that the boat contains salmon and trout, and various other powers of that kind. I think there is a good case for saying that the water bailiffs already have these powers under Section 10(1)(a), (b) and (c) and that there is no need to seek explicit and possibly repetitious provision for them under the Bill. This amendment seeks to put the matter beyond doubt. I beg to move.

Viscount Thurso

This is a useful and important amendment because, by leaving the wording as it had been, it would have taken away the powers from water bailiffs which they specifically needed to do the job which they were being asked to do. So it is just as well that the amendment is there, and we welcome it.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 10:

Page 2, line 33, at end insert— ("(3) Section 20 of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Act 1951 (disposal of fish seized under that Act) shall apply to fish seized under this Act as it applies to fish seized under that Act.").

The noble Lord said: This is a new provision which it has been suggested to me might usefully be included in the Bill. In short, it permits the sale of any fish seized and substitutes the proceeds as liable to forfeiture instead of the fish. It also affords consequential protection of persons authorised with the proceeds of sale against claims. Clearly such a sale would be without prejudice to the outcome of any case, but it seems sensible that, given the perishable nature of the fish, the power should be in the statute. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5 [Exemptions for fish farming. 1981 c. 29]:

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 11:

Page 2, leave out lines 34 to 37 and insert— ("In the Fisheries Act 1981, in Part I of Schedule 4 (exemptions for fish farming in respect of certain offences) there shall be inserted after paragraph 17 the following paragraph—

"Offence relating to use of gill nets").

The noble Lord said: This amendment, together with Amendment No. 12, is designed to ensure a textual amendment to Part I of Schedule 4 to the Fisheries Act 1981. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 12:

Page 2, line 38, after ("section 1") insert ("or 2").

The noble Lord said: This amendment is designed to allow fish farmers to catch within their fish farms the remnants of stock in their sea enclosures, and for purposes of that kind, to ensure that they are not caught up by mistake in the Bill. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 13.

Page 2, line 39, at end insert— ("(2) A person shall not be guilty of any contravention of this Act in respect of any act if he does the act for some scientific purpose, or for the purpose of protecting, improving or developing stocks of fish and has obtained the previous permission in writing of the Secretary of State.").

The noble Lord said: This is a new provision and it inserts a saving clause to protect from the provisions of the Bill any act done for scientific or stock improvement purposes. I beg to move.

Viscount Thurso

This is an important addition to the Bill because gill netting may be the only way in which to get proper samples of fish within trout lochs and so forth, and one might enmesh salmon in this way. Therefore, it is important not to interfere with genuine attempts to manage fisheries and conduct scientific experiments. I recommend this amendment to your Lordships.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal

I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 [Interpretation]:

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 14:

Page 3, line 12, leave out ("and").

The noble Lord said: I have already referred to this amendment, when speaking to Amendment No. 3. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 15:

Page 3, line 15, at end insert ("; and the statutory maximum"—

  1. (a) in relation to an offence committed in Scotland, means the prescribed sum within the meaning of section 289B of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975;
  2. (b) in relation to an offence committed in England, means the prescribed sum within the meaning of section 32 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980.").

The noble Lord said: This amendment goes with Amendments Nos. 3 and 14 and provides a statutory definition of the term "the statutory maximum". I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.

Clause 9 [Provisions as to River Tweed]:

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 16:

Page 3, line 35, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 on page 4.

The noble Lord said: This amendment goes with Amendment No. 7 and deletes words which are repetitious of words in Section 12(3) of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Protection) (Scotland) Act 1951. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10 [Short title, commencement and extent]:

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 17:

Page 4, line 5, leave out from ("provisions") to second ("of").

The noble Lord said: This was another point which was raised, very properly if I may say so, by the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, on Second Reading. It relates to the question of when the orders under Clause 2 should be brought into force. It seems that there are arguments on the grounds of consistency for putting the commencement provision for all clauses on the same basis. This amendment means that the Secretary of State may activate all the clauses by a commencement order, including Clause 2, which seems reasonable and sensible. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

The speed with which we are getting through this admirable Bill is due entirely to the readiness of the noble Lord to see the force of amendments which are well and quickly put. The response of the Government has been really wonderful and I have no fault to find at all with any of the speeches made by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. I thank him for making a change in this particular clause.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal

It is very satisfactory to be able to satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, in this way.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal moved Amendment No. 18:

Page 4, line 9, leave out from ("Save") to second ("this") and insert ("in so far as it relates to so much of the River Tweed as is situated outwith Scotland or to any enactment which so relates,").

The noble Lord said: This again is a technical amendment. It is designed to put beyond doubt the extent to which the Bill as amended extends. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported with amendments.