HL Deb 04 March 1982 vol 427 cc1374-5

3.16 p.m.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government under what conditions they will restore ECGD to the Republic of Zambia.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the restoration of general ECGD cover for this market will be dependent upon an improved outlook for the Zambian economy, upon the progress made in reducing the present arrears of payments guaranteed by ECGD, and upon the avoidance of a build up of further arrears.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware, as I am sure he is, that there is an ECGD delegation in Lusaka at the moment, which arrived last Saturday? Will he and the Government take into account the very real difficulties which the Government of Zambia have had over the past few years relating to the price of copper, on which almost all of the country's exports depend? Will the Government consider that the price of copper, which is not in the hands of the Zambian Government, is directly related to their ability to pay off previous debts?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the genesis of the problem which now confronts the people of Zambia is probably a little more complex than that which the noble Lord suggests. I have to say that ECGD is not a charity organisation, and the payment record of the Zambian authorities in recent years and months has been most unsatisfactory.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister bear in mind that in the days when this country was known as Northern Rhodesia and when copper was in real terms a good deal cheaper than it is today, Northern Rhodesia was one of the most prosperous and rich parts of Africa?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, I do not believe that the problem arises just from the price of copper, be it higher or lower than it was in the times to which the noble Lord referred. One of the other difficulties which the Zambians have faced recently, for example, has been the problem of getting the copper out of Zambia and on to the markets.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, is not the situation largely due to the loyal support which Zambia gave to this country when we were regarding the Government in Southern Rhodesia as being an illegal Government? Did Zambia not suffer from supporting us in our attitude then?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, there is no doubt that the situation in southern Africa as it then was, and indeed to some extent as it still is, does cause difficulty for some of the nations of the region. But as I indicated earlier, that is not a reason for granting what can only be regarded as charity, through the medium of the ECGD.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, the Minister, two last questions. Would he agree with me, in reply to another question that was asked, that it depends who you were in Northern Rhodesia as to whether you were better off then than now, particularly in view of the tremendous increase in education opportunities since independence? Secondly, is the noble Lord aware that one of the conditions laid down by the IMF, which the Government of Zambia has had to apply, prevented that Government from moving the pipeline as they had hoped to do in regard to past debts, which certainly would have helped to enable the Government to restore the ECGD cover?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, we discussed at some length yesterday the operations of the IMF in this and other markets. It remains the Government's hope that we will in due course be able to restore a credit limit of some sort to the Zambian market, but it will need an improvement in the present circumstances.