HL Deb 03 March 1982 vol 427 cc1284-7

2.58 p.m.

Lord Ellenborough

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider that the provision of funds by the Greater London Council towards the cost of publishing the Londoner newspaper is a proper use of ratepayers' money.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, local authorities have very wide powers under Section 142 of the Local Government Act 1972 to arrange for the publication within their area of information relating to local government. It is for the district auditor to consider whether, in publishing the Londoner, the GLC have acted within their powers and made proper use of ratepayers' money.

Lord Ellenborough

My Lords, in thanking my noble friend the Minister for his reply, would he confirm that the cost of publishing the Londoner totals about £½ million a year? Surely this is a scandalous waste of ratepayers' money at a time when the GLC are always bleating that they have insufficient money for social services? Will this blatant misuse of funds be looked into by the district auditor? May I also ask my noble friend if he will condemn loudly and clearly the insidious practice of using ratepayers' money for the publication and costs of distribution of what is only thinly disguised political propaganda, especially at a time when many ratepayers are still awaiting repayment of supplementary rates extorted from them illegally by the Marxist controlled GLC?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, a lot of questions were asked, all at the same time. Perhaps on the first point, about the district auditor, I can tell my noble friend that the district auditor is already aware of this view and the disquiet that is felt by many Londoners about their money being used in this way. If the district auditor considers the expenditure illegal or unreasonable, it is open to him to initiate surcharge action at any time. I am not certain about the figure to which my noble friend refers. My information is that the cost of printing and distribution has been reported to be of the order of £80,000. But whether that covers one issue, or the year's issues, I do not know. On the last point, the one of principle, I would certainly agree with my noble friend that it surely makes a mockery of protestations by any authority that they are short of funds to carry out essential services if they are willing to pour them away on matters of this kind.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the annual cost is £360,000? Is he further aware that this is a fraction of 1 per cent. of the council's budget and would not help a great deal any of the causes which the noble Lord who asked the Question has raised? Is he further aware that one man's propaganda is another man's factual statement?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, whether the figure is £80,000 or £360,000, or half a million pounds, I am not aware at this moment. If it is the figure the noble Lord mentions, £360,000, then the ratepayers and the residents in London would find very many uses for what I consider to be a not inconsiderable amount of money, for many of the services they would like to see provided.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether what he said about the position of the district auditor in respect of this publication also applies to the full page advertisements in the press, containing nothing but straight political propaganda, which have equally been issued by the GLC recently?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I am quite certain the point my noble friend raises is important. The amounts of money involved there are not inconsiderable. If it should be that the district auditor is not aware of them, they will certainly be drawn to his attention for his consideration in the same way as I mentioned in regard to the other matter.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, is it not the case that many Conservative controlled regional and local authorities also publish civic journals?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, of course there are authorities which issue publications all over the country, and have always been. I think the thrust of the original Question is the content of these types of publications. I do not think it is good enough, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, said, simply to say that one man's meat is another man's poison; that can be so unless you are having to pay the bill for your own poison.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, while I am in favour of all proper economies and economic administration, both in the public and private sector, may I ask whether we ought not to be doing more to encourage local patriotism? Is not this a bright publication designed to stimulate interest in the capital city and what is being done, and should we not welcome it?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, some may consider this local patriotism; others may consider it something else. But I say again that the thrust of the Question was whether or not this was a proper use of ratepayers' money, and I have tried to answer it on that basis.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, is not this another example of the growing practice of this House interfering in matters which are the prerogative of local authorities? If it is really the view of the Tories that local government should have greater freedom, should not some steps be taken to discourage the flood of Questions coming from the other side of the House about particular aspects of local authority spending?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, as long as money is spent in this way it is open to anyone to question whether it is a right and proper way.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, will the noble Lord explain a little more clearly how the district auditor becomes involved in this? The district auditor, I sincerely hope the noble Lord will confirm, is concerned with the propriety of the expenditure and of course with value for money. Is it not a little dangerous that the district auditor should be cast in the role of some kind of political censor and required to make judgments as to the political content or otherwise of a particular journal? Does not that go well outside the role of normal auditing?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, with great respect, I think the noble Lord misses the point. The point is that anyone may at any time refer to the district auditor anything which he or she or they may feel ought to be investigated as a matter of abuse or misuse of ratepayers' money. The district auditor will decide at the end of the day whether or not that is so. But there is no harm, in my view, and indeed I think it is a great safeguard that there is someone who is independent to whom people may refer matters of this kind.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, if the district auditor is considering this publication, would the noble Lord see that he also considers some of the material sent out recently by the Westminster City Council, which is not even thinly disguised party political propaganda?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I can only repeat what I have said; that it is up to anyone to draw anything they wish to the attention of any district auditor.