HL Deb 02 March 1982 vol 427 cc1178-80

3.10 p.m.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (The Earl of Gowrie)

rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 9th February be approved.

The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move that the Departments (Northern Ireland) Order 1982, the draft of which was laid before your Lordships' House on 9th February, be approved. My right honourable friend who is now the Lord Privy Seal, in answering Questions on 19th March and 30th July of last year in another place, announced his decision to establish a Department of Finance and Personnel for Northern Ireland. The new department will take over the control functions of the present Northern Ireland Departments of Finance and of the Civil Service. It will be responsible for resource planning across the whole range of the functions exercised by the Northern Ireland Departments. The new department will also be responsible for personnel matters at present the responsibility of the Department of the Civil Service. Miscellaneous functions of the Department of Finance will be transferred to other departments.

This order gives effect to these decisions. Article 3 renames the Department of Finance as the Department of Finance and Personnel. Article 4 abolishes the Department of the Civil Service and transfers its functions to the Department of Finance and Personnel. Article 5 transfers miscellaneous functions of the Department of Finance to other departments. These are functions which would not be appropriate to the central control and personnel role of the new rationalised department. I commend the order to the House.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 9th February be approved.— (The Earl of Gowrie.)

Lord Blease

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl the Minister for his explanatory outline of this order. The Minister will know of the great concern that was publicly expressed by the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance, that is the organisation in Northern Ireland representing civil service and public service staffs at all levels. The organisation was greatly annoyed and concerned when this departmental change was announced by the previous Northern Ireland Secretary of State, Mr. Humphrey Atkins, in reply to a parliamentary Question in another place on 30th July last year. I think the manner in which it was announced may have given rise to some of the misgivings which subsequently emerged.

However, there was a series of discussions and consultations between the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance and the Government about the doubt and problems arising from the proposal. From informal consultations I have had with the officials of the Public Service Alliance I understand that, arising from a meeting with the noble Earl on 13th November last and a letter which the Minister sent on 8th December to the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance, a number of the doubts have been removed and a fair measure of understanding has been reached.

In my discussions with the Public Service Alliance officials, I have every reason to believe that the organisation is fully committed to suitable consultations and negotiations about measures to improve efficiency. They are anxious that every effort should be made to provide an effective and efficient public service in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland. I believe that the Public Service Alliance officials and the members of the organisation are somewhat reassured by the noble Earl's statement that the importance of the personnel functions are to be given a strong voice in the new department. It would be the wish of the Civil Service representatives that every facility should be given in the new organisation to the development of more progressive and enlightened personnel policies. With those remarks, I give our approval to the order.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, I, too, would like to thank the Minister for introducing and explaining this order. I think it is a classic example of how complicated legal terminology can become, and how comparatively simple the basic aims. I am fascinated by the statement under "References in enactments" Article 7, subsection (2) which runs: The transfer of functions by this Order shall not affect any order, regulation, rule, appointment, direction, instruction, approval, requirement or authorisation made or given or other thing done (a splendid expression) by the transferor before the transfer date". I imagine the legal draftsmen know what they are doing and I certainly would not challenge them on this point. I would only ask humbly that they might sometimes consider using the good old English word "begun" instead of the somewhat more ponderous "commence", as used here in the following subsection (3).

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, I would like to support particularly the last remark of my noble friend on the Front Bench. We are quite prepared to support this order, but we are anxious that the noble Lord and his colleagues should be fully aware that when the facts which you have got to face are particularly difficult, as in Northern Ireland, altering the set-up of departments has very little to do with it.

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, I am grateful to the three noble Lords for their reception of the order. I would also like to take the opportunity, in commenting on their remarks, to pay my own tribute as the sponsoring Minister in Northern Ireland to the public service there, and to say, perhaps as a footnote to what the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, has just said, that whatever the problems in Northern Ireland, and there are many, the quality and calibre of the public servants and indeed of their unions are not the cause of these problems. They are excellent in calibre and quality, as I have personal reason to know.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, pointed out to the House that I met the union representatives on 13th November. We had a very full and frank discussion, and as a result I think I have been able to allay some of the anxieties which were then expressed. Of course, the new Department of Finance and Personnel, of which I am the sponsoring Minister, will continue to attach very high priority to good industrial relations in the Civil Service in Northern Ireland. The Civil Service unions will, of course, be able to take issues to the Permanent Secretary, and, where appropriate, to myself.

My Lords, it is the nature of the work of parliamentary draftsmen that they have to cover their bets. If they do not they quickly find themselves in difficulty. I will draw the point about the Saxon "begin" and the Latinate "commence" to their attention.

On Question, Motion agreed to.