HL Deb 29 June 1982 vol 432 cc145-7

2.44 p.m.

Baroness David

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of their recent subsidy to enable unemployed people to study at the Open University, they would consider doing the same for those wishing to study at Birkbeck College.

Lord Skelmersdale

No, my Lords.

Baroness David

My Lords, I expected that reply and it is of course not at all satisfactory. It seems hard that one provider of part-time degree courses should be treated so generously and get half a million—I am delighted that it has—while the other—

A noble Lord

Question!

Baroness David

My Lords, may I ask why the other part-time provider should be treated so badly? Is the Minister aware that part-time students at Birkbeck have to pay for their courses, the fees have doubled in the past year and they have to pay for their fees out of taxed income? There is very little help for them and in fact only 23 per cent. get any help at all from their employers or from other sources. There are hardly any discretionary grants now. Is it not time the Government took a more kindly attitude to these highly-motivated students?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the noble Baroness is trying to draw parallels where none exist. The two institutions are completely different. For one thing, the Open University is paid for, as I am sure she knows, by a direct grant from the Department of Education and Science, whereas the grant for Birk-beck, being part of the University of London, is paid for by the University Grants Committee. Further than that, the point about Birkbeck is that the college's charter allows it to admit different kinds of students but specifically and principally persons engaged in earning their livelihood during the day; so, as I have said, no parallels exist.

The noble Baroness also asked me about fees. For those embarking on their course in 1981–82, they were fixed at £160 a year for a first degree and £250 a year for the post-graduate degree or diploma. In setting these and future fee levels, the college will, I am sure, have had regard to the University Grants Committee's recommendation on which the committee has based its allocation of grants to universities.

Baroness Jeger

May I ask the Minister what he would say to a student at Birkbeck earning his or her living during the day and paying fees for night study, which is not an easy thing to do out of taxed income, who through no fault of his own loses his job and therefore has no money to continue paying his fees at a time when he would have more time to study? Surely we ought to make it possible for students in that position, who may be within a very short time of taking their final degrees, to be able to continue, whereas if they are out of work they have no financial back-up to pay the fees which are essential.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the Government obviously accept the view put forward by the noble Baroness, but I would say that this is a matter for the college authorities themselves. I understand that the registrar would listen very sympathetically in such circumstances.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that what is much more important is to provide facilities for the unemployed to attend courses at local authority colleges and polytechnics throughout the country, especially in areas of high unemployment? Would he ask his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education to discuss this with local authority associations and see whether any help can be given?—because there would be a considerable demand in places like the North-East, the North-West and the Midlands, provided the question of the fees can be got over.

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords, I will certainly bring that to the attention of my right honourable friend.

Lord Redcliffe-Maud

My Lords, is the Minister aware that Birkbeck is a unique institution, as is the Open University, and that although it is an integral part of London University, as has been pointed out, it does serve exactly the purpose, which I think the whole House would agree? We wish people who are thrown out of work in the present recession to find that they can exploit the situation not by stopping the work they were doing at Birbeck but by continuing it.

Lord Skelmersdale

I accept that, my Lords, but the problem is that, in order to take account of this particular situation, it would be necessary to change the college's charter.

Baroness David

My Lords, could the Government not realise that this is a particular situation and that the students from Birkbeck come—I entirely agree with what my noble friend has said about local authority colleges—but the students of Birkbeck come from a wide area. They take the trains, when they run, from places as far as Plymouth, Portsmouth and so on—perhaps not Plymouth but Portsmouth. They come from a wide area round London. The oldest student is 71 and the youngest student is 21. Could this very special thing that Birkbeck provides not be considered as a separate matter by the Government?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I will also put that point to my right honourable friend.