COMMONS AMENDMENT (Hansard, 21 June 1982)

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 19. This is a consequential amendment as a result of Amendment No. 13 which we recently approved. This is the last amendment, and before sitting down I should again like to congratulate my noble friend Lord Glenarthur on the success of this Private Peer's Bill, having gone through both Houses and returned here with these amendments.
My only qualification for having taken on this task at the final stage was that I piloted through and Sponsored two Scottisn Deer Bills in the Commons in the 1960s; in particular, the Sale of Venison (Scotland) Act 1968 which was a precursor of this Bill. As I said in the Second Reading debate, I am glad that the Sale of Venison (Scotland) Act 1968, which could go only a certain way, is now being extended and the measures in it taken much further.
I would remind your Lordships that, in those days, there was quite a lot of opposition to what appeared to be a conspiracy of landowners trying to prevent people from bagging deer, and there was a limit to how far one could go in a private Member's Bill, which could get through only with general agreement. As the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, has said this evening, the horrors which are now perpetrated by poachers 867 have made most people, certainly in Scotland, realise that much more now needs to be done.
I am sure that my noble friend Lord Glenarthur would wish to join me in thanking all noble Lords who have contributed during the stages of this Bill, and especially my noble friend Lord Mansfield. I should like to mention, in particular, the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, because he has made his experience and knowledge and great interest available to help us improve the legislation in Scotland. He is here again tonight and has made further contributions, and I am sure that the House is grateful to him. My Lords I beg to move.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, it might be convenient if I tried to put at rest the minds of the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, and other noble Lords who are confused by the plethora of amendments to differing orders and Acts that are concerned with this knotty problem of deer farming and deer management, in general. I am given to understand that this interesting document which is called Statutes in Force will have a new edition within six months, which will incorporate all the legislation which has been passed up till now, including the Bill which is before your Lordships this evening. I understand that it will appear in a suitably conventional form. The noble Lord, Lord Northfield seems to think that it will be very difficult for deer stalkers or deer farmers not to have one document at hand to show them on which side of the law they are carrying out their operations, and I hope that his fears will be put totally at rest when a new reprint of the Statutes in Force is produced within the next six months.
But if the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, believes that Amendments Nos. 12 and 13, which I was attempting to explain to your Lordships, are difficult, I invite him to sit in on many of the other Scottish Bills which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, and other noble Lords study in the long watches of the evening. He would then see that reading subsection (3) of Amendment No. 13 is relatively simple. It seemed fairly clear to me and I am not a lawyer; I just have to wrestle with these problems, both on the Back-Benches and in your Lordships' House. But I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, and I understand the fears that have been expressed by other Members of your Lordships' House, and I hope that Statutes in Force may explain matters.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, as I moved the Motion, I think that I am entitled to speak again, so I do not need to ask for the leave of the House. Before my noble friend sits down, I want to ask him one question. I am delighted to hear about the publication which is coming out during the next six months, but I am very doubtful whether it will set out the text of the original 1959 Act in the form in which it is now being amended. That is what will be difficult, because it will still all be by reference. So I hope that this subject will receive attention from the Government. My noble friend mentioned me as somebody who has had to pore over difficult Scottish statutes, but may I 868 remind him that when I was in a position to do so, as Secretary of State and earlier as a junior Minister, I was always the champion of consolidation and was always trying to get Scottish housing Acts and other Acts into a form which was more intelligible, not only to the legal fraternity, for whom I have the greatest respect, but also to laymen.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, if I may have the leave of your Lordships to correct one point in my peroration on this amendment, I said "within six months", but I am told that it will be about six months. I hear encouraging noises from my noble friend Lord Colville who knows about these matters and has great expertise, both as a lawyer and as a Minister in his past incarnation. I am also reliably informed that the revised document will contain the Deer (Scotland) Act 1959, as amended by the Bill that we have been discussing this evening. So I think that that is an added bonus to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, and to your Lordships' House.

§ Lord Northfield
My Lords, this seems a happy note on which to conclude the passage of this Bill, because I believe that after we have finished this evening it automatically goes for Royal Assent. I should not like this moment to pass without making one or two points. First, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, was being unduly modest. He said that his only qualification for taking on the Bill at this point was his connection with past legislation. That was such a distinguished past that he does not need to be modest about it on this occasion. Those earlier Acts were of great importance, and what the Bill that we are discussing is doing is simply bringing them up to date in the light of further experience and, dare I say it, in the light of experience across the Border. One of the difficulties about this whole matter has been —

§ Lord Sandys
My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is straying beyond the paths of order at this stage. I think that it would assist the House if he could draw his remarks to a conclusion sooner rather than later.

§ Lord Northfield
My Lords, I am absolutely astonished. I have not spoken at all on this amendment.

§ Lord Lyell
I am sorry, my Lords. I thought that the noble Lord had spoken once on this amendment. I am sorry if I led my noble friend into the paths of misadventure, but I understood that the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, had spoken on this amendment. I was thinking that we are not discussing the Question, That the Bill do now pass. But, if I am in error, I am sorry.

§ Lord Northfield
My Lords, I am afraid that the noble Lords are in error, and I am sorry that the Deputy Chief Whip comes in without having been here earlier, and starts saying something without knowing what has been happening. I had not said anything on this amendment. I am using this occasion simply to say that I should not like the modesty of the noble Lord to go on the record, without paying tribute 869 to him as a forerunner of this legislation, which we are now finally bringing up-to-date at this stage.
I am sorry that the passage of the Bill ends on a rather sour note, after I had tried to end it rather amicably. I have spoken extremely briefly throughout and I had not spoken on this amendment. Therefore I hope that the noble Lord will offer me an apology. The Bill now goes for Royal Assent. I am absolutely delighted to hear that the legislation will be brought fully into a form in which everybody can see it; namely, in the publication to which the noble Lord has referred.
I end by saying that we have completed a mammoth piece of work. Thanks to the activities of the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, and the help of the Government the Bill is in substantial shape. I venture to say that without the help of a few people outside—I would mention in particular Mr. Hodgkiss, one of the main advisers of those of us dealing with the Bill—many of the weaknesses would not have been found and remedied. It is good that we can end with a Bill which is virtually agreed and which will make a considerable contribution to the safety and welfare of deer in Scotland. It will bring the law up to date in Scotland as it has been brought up to date in England. It is a good day for deer that we in this House tonight have completed the work.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, with the leave, for the second time, of the House, if I was out of order may I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Northfield. I think that even he will admit that in my mind there was a certain amount of confusion as to which amendment we were dealing with. The noble Lord shakes his head. Nevertheless, I hope that he will accept my apology.