Public Housing: Unoccupied Dwellings (Hansard, 17 June 1982)

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)
My Lords, in their Annual Housing and Investment Strategy Programme returns for 1982–83, local authorities in England estimated that on 1st April 1981 there were 97,000 local authority dwellings empty, of which some 24,000 had been empty for more than one year. At the same date some 5,500 dwellings in English new towns were empty. English local authorities also estimated that there were 17,000 housing association dwellings empty as at 1st April.
Figures for empty dwellings in Scotland and Wales, and for empty dwellings in the ownership of Government departments and other public bodies, are the responsibility of my right honourable friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales, and of my right honourable friends responsible for the bodies concerned.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. I should like to follow up the point he made—and I know that he also made it in his reply to a similar Question on 5th May— 706 about these dwellings that have been empty for over a year. Would these dwellings be suitable for homesteading, and is there any centralised register by which people who might be willing to move to those areas could discover where those properties are and whether they would be available for homesteading?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, certainly some of the dwellings concerned would be suitable for homesteading or for whatever other remedies can be applied to bring them back into use. But I would only commend my noble friend Lady Gardner—and, indeed, as I said previously, anyone who is interested in this subject in depth—to read through the pamphlet, Reducing the Number of Empty Dwellings, which I believe is in the Library. To go into further detail—which I would happily do, but perhaps not at this moment—I should have to reel off some of the many steps that the Government are, in fact, taking to encourage as well as to help authorities to bring such accommodation back into use.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, does the Minister not agree that the percentage of unoccupied houses in public ownership is much too high? The principal reason for the high percentage is that local authorities, which have the responsibility, are not permitted to spend sufficient money to put those houses in order.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, in the first place I would agree with what the noble Lord says, that the percentage is too high. But I would not agree with his point about the amount of money available, because today, more than at any other time, authorities are in receipt of capital receipts amounting to hundreds of millions of pounds, which they can spend on anything to do with housing or anything else. If that is the priority which they think it should be, and which I think the noble Lord and certainly I think it should be, then they have the resources today in a way that they may not have had at any time previously.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, is it not true that until the Government give an unequivocal declaration that housing capital allocations will not be further cut in real terms—as they have been by nearly 50 per cent. since 1979—local housing authorities do not feel confident enough in the Government's intentions to spend their accumulated capital receipts on such things as rehabilitating empty properties? Therefore, as my noble friend pointed out, is not this really a question of adequate housing capital investment and local authorities feeling sure enough about the Government's intentions not to put their capital receipts away—as the Housing Minister said the other day in a speech—" for a rainy day "?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the fact is that, first, the Government give some £2½billion a year in subsidies to local authorities for housing. Secondly, as one who at one time had to decide how much money to spend on rehabilitating the stock of council houses, I believe that, if the money is there, there can be very few better investments than putting the housing stock into good shape. Therefore, if the money is there—and it is—I should have thought that that was a priority. There are no limitations on authorities as to 707 whether they should or should not apply the money in that way. I hope that they will.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, in his speech on the 6th of this month, the Minister of Housing said: As far as the October 1980 moratorium is concerned, I would not claim that it had no effect at all on the pattern of expenditure in 1981 to 1982 ". He then went on to say that he understood that a number of local authorities—in fact, I think it was four-fifths of them—were putting aside money for a rainy day, presumably meaning that they were worried that there would be further cuts.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I cannot assume what authorities were thinking, but it has to be said that the total amount spent on capital spending and work of this kind by authorities was an under-spend last year of over £400 million. With respect, I do not think it is good enough to say that it is all because they fear there may be a rainy day and therefore they are keeping this money. If I had the money and was in their position I would feel obliged to spend it upon rehabilitating my housing stock because, all else apart, that carries with it no further obligations by way of a long-term interest debt. I still think that that is a priority and that authorities should use money in that way.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister do his best to ensure that—on the lines of the report published this week by the National Council for Voluntary Organisations—as many as possible of these empty houses, particularly those that have been empty a long time, are used for purposes of community care for the sort of people who used to have to be cared for in institutions?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the noble Lord raises an important point. I would want to look carefully both into the report to which he refers and also into the observations which he makes. It is very relevant to the situation.

§ Lord Glenkinglas
My Lords, the Question was put down to Her Majesty's Government. My noble friend on the Front Bench is always most courteous and keen to help the House, but does the fact that he is unable to give any answers for Scotland and Wales suggest that my right honourable friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales have left the Government?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I have no doubt that if my noble friend puts down the same Question for my colleagues who answer for Scotland and Wales he will receive far better replies than I am able to give today.

§ Lord Glenkinglas
My Lords, how do I do that?— because I have to put a Question to Her Majesty's Government?

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the confidence of local authorities 708 in England and Wales has been considerably shaken over the last three years by the actions of this Government? Is he aware that he has made a far more constructive and helpful statement today than I have heard for a long time? If he desires the local authorities to act on his statement, would he be good enough to send them a directive indicating that the Government support them in the action that he has today said he would personally support?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I think it would be proper to say that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and my honourable friend the Minister for Housing are trying hard to encourage local authorities to spend money on this type of rehabilitation, and so on. It must be a great cause of concern to everyone that there are so many dwellings empty in this way. Therefore, yes, I am grateful for what the noble Lord says and I appreciate that, and I can only assure him that I will, as will my colleagues, do my utmost together with—not against—local authorities to try to help to solve this really serious problem.

§ Baroness Fisher of Rednal
My Lords, would not the Minister agree that many of the units of housing accommodation are in the areas that have a reputation for being what is called "rough"? Would he not agree that many local authorities, with tenant consultation, are using their best endeavours to give hope where despair was prevalent, because many tenants were condemned to live in what one might call architectural monstrosities? Would the noble Minister assure the House that his department will continue to support the priority estates project?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, we certainly introduced the priority estates project, and so clearly we are committed to continuing to support it. I am glad that the noble Baroness mentioned it because it is imaginative, although, as I should like to add, only one of the many imaginative subjects we have introduced to deal especially with those categories of people who need to have accommodation, such as first-time buyers, and for home ownership, for homesteading, and for bringing into housing this stock which is empty. We are doing a whole range of things because the situation is a critical one.

§ Baroness Denington
My Lords, can the Minister say how many of these homes are not modern homes built post-war with modern amenities but are older homes, either houses or flats, which are awaiting rehabilitation or modernisation and are therefore standing empty? As the Minister will acknowledge and know full well, older homes which stand empty for any length of time deteriorate rapidly and need a lot more money spent on them, and are vandalised.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, of course I agree with what the noble Baroness says, but one of the greatest contributions that can be made, in my opinion, is to take these older homes and let them go to people who are themselves willing to take them on board to bring them into shape. Homesteading is very progressive and there is much more that can and ought to be done with that.

§ Lord Monk Bretton
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he has some detail as to which areas of the country primarily have the empty houses?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I shall write to my noble friend with that information because, although I have the information here, it would take some time to give it. I have given it before, but I will certainly send a letter with that information.