§ 3 p.m.
§ Lord AucklandMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many new nurses' homes serving national health hospitals, both teaching and district, were constructed during the years 1978–81; how many such homes were the subject of building improvements during those years; and what plans they have for such improvements and new buildings for the years 1982–84.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I regret that information in the form requested is not available centrally and would be disproportionately costly to collect. Capital expenditure on existing staff accommodation of all kinds amounted to £13 million in 1979–80 and £17 million in 1980–81. The importance of adequate residential accommodation for nursing staff is always recognised in any scheme to build a new hospital or to upgrade existing hospitals.
§ Lord AucklandMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his helpful reply. May I ask him whether he is aware that there are many overseas nurses working in our National Health Service whose home, literally, is a nurses' home? Will he bear that in mind in the context of this Question? May I further ask him whether, in the case of nurses who live out, there can be some arrangement for rent allowance or some other allowance, bearing in mind the quite proper severance on nurses' pay at the present time, to give them at least some help in the present very difficult conditions in which nurses live?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, if I may deal first with the second part of my noble friend's supplementary question, this is a matter which the Nurses' and Midwives' Whitley Council are at present considering. As my noble friend will recall, it was decided as far back as 1980 that we should progressively increase lodging charges for nurses, and we are about halfway through that process now. Thus, when the charges are fully implemented, which will be in 1984, I think that the question of a rent allowance will not then arise.
Lord Wallace of CoslanyMy Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, thanked him for his helpful reply when, in point of fact, he did not get a reply to his Question? Secondly, can the Minister state whether this information is actually in the Department of Health and Social Security? It must be. Local health authorities have the information and they must be aware of it. I do not see how cost comes into it, when the information is there.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the fact is that schemes of this nature which are expected to cost less than £5 million do not require specific approval by the department, provided, of course, that they are contained within the general budget of the region or the district. That is the reason why we do not keep detailed statistics in the way that my noble friend has asked. There are, of course, 15 regional health authorities and, I think, approaching 200 district health authorities under the regions, and it is for that further reason that we do not have the details which are asked for.
§ Lord Davies of PenrhysMy Lords, will the noble Lord give an assurance to the House that, when the report of the joint committee is presented to the Government, they will accept it?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am sorry that I am not quite certain to which joint committee the noble Lord is referring.
§ Lord Davies of PenrhysMy Lords, the noble Lord referred to joint negotiations going on, from which there will be a recommendation. May I ask whether the Government will accept it?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I think that the noble Lord misunderstands the purpose and the nature of the Whitley Councils, which are negotiating bodies, with both workers' and management representatives on them. The Government are not concerned in the Whitley Councils.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in the context——
Lord Wallace of CoslanyMy Lords, I should like to come back to the noble Lord and to his reply to me about the difficulty of getting the required information. He said that there were 200 district health authorities and 15 regional health authorities, so that makes 215 circulars that could go out asking people to give the requisite information, which should be quite simple.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, as I think I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, on an earlier occasion, the National Health Service is not a marionette controlled on strings by my right honourable friend from the Elephant and Castle. We are determined to give the regions and the districts autonomy in running their own affairs, and that is why we do not seek to dig up the plant and look at the roots as often as has been done on previous occasions.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, are not these mixed metaphors getting a little dangerous? We are digging up plants, we are marionettes and we are Elephants and Castles. What are we?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I will choose my metaphors more carefully in future.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Lord, the Minister, aware that, irrespective of where they live, whether privately or in homes provided by the hospital, 105 the real burden that is afflicting British nurses at the moment is the grave difficulty which they are experiencing in trying to make ends meet? Will he do his best to resolve that problem as early as possible?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says, but that is a different question.
§ Baroness Masham of IltonMy Lords, may I ask one very quick question? May I ask the Minister whether, in the planning of nurses' homes, any accommodation is being planned for married couples, because many nurses marry very young now and many more men have come into the profession?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I think I am right in saying that accommodation attached to hospitals, nursing homes and the like, is for single people. I will write to the noble Baroness if I am wrong. In fact, the detailed guidance for these purposes is contained in Hospital Building Note No. 24, of which I can perhaps send a copy to the noble Baroness.