HL Deb 30 July 1982 vol 434 cc455-7

11.27 a.m.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that according to a poll conducted by the Opinion Research Centre 63 per cent. of people disapproved of their decision to buy Trident II, and 53 per cent. believe that Polaris should be scrapped; and whether they will act in accordance with this expression of public opinion.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, the Government are aware of the results of this poll. The way in which the question is put is, of course, crucial to the result of any opinion poll. The Government believe that, when presented objectively with all the relevant facts, the majority of the population of the United Kingdom would be in favour of retaining the United Kingdom's independent strategic nuclear deterrent and of the choice of Trident as the most cost-effective way of maintaining this capability.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the Government believe what they want to believe and that the reality of the situation is that there has been a fundamental shift in opinion, not only in this country but also in Europe, in favour of the view that we must get rid of the nuclear weapon or it will get rid of us?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, of course we believe what we wish to believe, just as the noble Lord does. We believe that unilateral nuclear disarmament would be a step away from and not towards continuing peace and security. The best prospect of reducing nuclear weapons is by concrete multilateral negotiations to limit the forces on both sides.

Viscount Massereene and Ferrard

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that such polls conducted are quite worthless because the general public are not privy to the information which is necessary to come to a balanced judgment on such a subject?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, one of the difficulties is, as I have said, the presentation of the question.

Lord Duncan-Sandys

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that opinion polls are not the way to decide defence policy?

The Earl of Avon

I do indeed, my Lords.

Lord Annan

My Lords, will the noble Earl share my surprise that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, must apparently be in favour of the reintroduction of capital punishment since opinion polls have shown opinion to be in favour of it although Parliament in its wisdom has decreed against it?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, the noble Lord stresses the difficulty of governing by opinion polls.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that, contrary to the opinion expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Annan, I am not suggesting a referendum on the subject? I am suggesting, however, that the Government should not remain immune from the development and trend of a public opinion in many parts of the world and that a simple reiteration of the Government's dependence upon nuclear weapons is not enough. Is it not the case that it is high time that the Government expressed abhorrence of this weapon, which is very widely shared, and their determination in their own way—multilateral, whatever it may be—to do their utmost to get rid of it?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, we do indeed share the abhorrence of these weapons. We do not believe that it would do any good if we were to disarm unilaterally. Russia would certainly not follow suit. I believe that the majority of people agree that we must keep our defences strong otherwise we shall put ourselves as well as our NATO partners at serious risk. The only way to achieve disarmament is through a realistic process and negotiated arms control arrangements, as were explained earlier by my noble friend Lord Belstead.

Lord Thorneycroft

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the responsible opinion of British people is expressed at general elections and that they have now elected eight Governments in succession, including a number of Labour Governments, all firmly committed to a policy of maintaining an independent nuclear deterrent?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing out one of the points that I had in my brief.