HL Deb 29 July 1982 vol 434 cc355-8

3.15 p.m.

Baroness Lane-Fox

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the comments made by medical practitioners about the adverse effects on their work of the industrial action now being taken by workers in the National Health Service.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am well aware of the concern which doctors have expressed about the effects of the industrial action. We have consistently urged the trade unions to call off the action, which can only be harmful to patients, and to return to the negotiating table.

Baroness Lane-Fox

My Lords, in thanking my noble friend the Minister for his reply, may I ask for his opinion on the hold-up of sterile supplies, which impedes the work of doctors, requires operations to be postponed, and causes anguish to patients? Is he further aware that diagnosis of emergency cases by the picket line is farcical and unacceptable to ill people?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, of course I deplore the effects of the industrial action, however it may be manifested, but in particular in the case of sterile supplies, in regard to which in a number of cases departments have been reduced to issuing supplies for emergency purposes only. As for the determination of emergencies, that is of course a matter for the doctors concerned and not for the medically unqualified personnel; and I believe that the unions appreciate that.

Lord Wells-Pestell

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he would be good enough to inform his noble friend who has asked the Question that a good many ordinary people were inconvenienced and had their operations postponed when medical consultants went on strike not all that long ago?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, that is a rather different matter. But, of course, I deplore industrial action whenever it takes place in the Health Service, and we have made our views clear on that point.

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that this very regrettable strike is by no means the only factor that is having an adverse effect on the work of National Health Service general practitioners? Has the noble Lord been made aware of the report of the Social Services Committee in another place, which draws attention to the very serious effects which the University Grants Committee cuts are having on university clinical staff, upon whom many general practitioners' patients are dependent for their clinical care? In other words, would it not be a little unfair if we laid all that is wrong at the moment with National Health Service general practice at the door of the present striking health service workers?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is referring to something slightly different. My noble friend was referring in particular to the hospital service within the health service. With regard to the effect on general practitioners' patients, I should say that in some parts of the country some GPs, indeed many GPs, I think, are having difficulties as a result of restrictions on non-emergency admissions and disruption of out-patient clinics. I believe that there is some evidence of difficulties in arranging diagnostic tests and in the delivering and testing of specimens.

Lord Wallace of Coslany

My Lords, while the noble Lord may deplore the effects of industrial unrest, is he not aware that it would do both him and the Government well to deplore the cause of it all? Further, I would ask the noble Lord whether he agrees that, if in fact the National Health Service workers are so vital to the health of patients, it is not time that the Government gave them the same priority as they have given to firemen and police in pay deals? If the country has to pay, then we should pay.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, we have indeed made a very substantial offer to the workers in the health service. Your Lordships will be familiar with the percentages, but the total sum of money at present on offer is in excess of £400 million—a quite enormous figure.

Lord Wallace of Coslany

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that though there may have been increases from the Government, when it comes to a showdown the workers will be very little better off, and in some cases involving nurses, worse off?

Lord Trefgarne

No, I do not accept that for a moment, my Lords. As the noble Lord will know, the increases, spread across the various grades of worker, range from 6 per cent. to 7½ per cent.—and are even higher in some of the grades within the particular Whitley Councils. I think the offers which have been made in global terms are entirely fair and reasonable, but the individual distribution of those sums is for the Whitley Council.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many fair-minded people believe that the nurses are not being treated generously? But, notwithstanding that, is he aware that the action being taken by some pickets to impede the flow of the mail into hospitals is causing great concern in the medical profession? May I ask him whether he is aware that, in the terms of the 1953 Post Office Act, it is an offence to impede the free flow of the mail; and, if that is indeed so, what action is his department taking with the general administration of the National Health Service to draw this matter to the attention of the appropriate authorities?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, if the mail is being impeded, then it is a matter for the local police, who would presumably act upon information received from the district health authority. The legal position is not quite as simple as the noble Lord describes it, because in some cases the problem has simply been that postmen are unwilling to cross picket lines.

Baroness Lane-Fox

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether, if there have to be picket lines in the NHS dispute, he does not think that, in fairness, they should be manned only by those who have themselves experienced serious illness and hospitalisation?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I do not think there should be any picket lines at all.