HL Deb 21 July 1982 vol 433 cc845-7

2.47 p.m.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the response made to the request from IATA that Governments be requested as a matter of urgency to take all possible steps to rationalise Air Traffic Control systems and air route networks which could produce substantial fuel economies and financial savings.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, following the IATA Annual Meeting, one United Kingdom airline wrote to the Department of Trade about air route networks and fuel savings. The department and the National Air Traffic Services are fully seized of the need to reduce fuel consumption and considerable effort is devoted to this in the United Kingdom. NATS also play a full part in Eurocontrol and the European Air Navigation Planning Group of ICAO. Eurocontrol are currently considering changes in the route network which could lead in the short-term to savings of about 2½ per cent. Further savings could emerge in the longer-term. In addition, significant savings could arise from more effective air traffic flow management. Eurocontrol's central data bank should help in this connection.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, if the noble Lord the Minister will not take it amiss, I was expecting the Secretary of State to answer my Question, and so perhaps the noble Lord opposite will pass on to him what I was going to ask.

Several noble Lords

Oh!

Baroness Burton of Coventry

I am not being offensive, my Lords, and the Minister will see where I am going. I wanted to ask the Secretary of State whether he was aware that it was the question of military airspace in Europe which was holding up the shortening of air routes as much as we would have hoped. I wanted to ask whether the Secretary of State for Trade would feel able to take this up with the Council of Ministers, as only Ministers would be able to persuade Governments to give up some of this airspace.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I will certainly pass on to my noble friend the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry. I understand that, so far as military airspace is concerned, within each member state of Eurocontrol, it is the member states of Eurocontrol who tend to take decisions, certainly about military airspace, within their own countries. But, as the noble Baroness and the House will be aware, Eurocontrol comprises both military and civil representatives.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, is the Minister aware that this morning I have received from IATA details of 10 routes within the European Economic Community which could produce considerable savings to the airlines? As the annual amount estimated to be saved on fuel alone is 27 million dollars, I wanted to know whether the Minister would feel able to refer this matter to the Council of Ministers if I gave him full information, so that the whole question could be expedited?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I am, as always, very grateful for the noble Baroness' figures and indeed the accuracy of her representations. Certainly I shall pass on her figures to my noble friend.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that both this proposal, and indeed other proposals submitted by the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, would do a number of things? It could make air travel more safe. It would make it more comfortable and easy for people. It would make fares much cheaper. In short, it could greatly improve not merely our European air services but world air services. May I therefore ask the noble Lord to take very seriously the submissions which the noble Baroness has made and ensure that they are communicated to the Secretary of State?

Lord Lyell

Yes, my Lords.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the area covered by Eurocontrol is a comparatively small one? Is he aware that there is a growing volume of opinion that would welcome the extension of Eurocontrol over a far wider area? Will his noble friend consider publishing a short White Paper which shows quite unequivocally exactly what the policy of Her Majesty's Government is towards Eurocontrol?—because so far it seems to be a little ambivalent where it is not obscure.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, the noble Lord will be one of the few people in your Lordships' House who might feel that Eurocontrol is ambivalent and obscure or in any way ineffective. I can assure the noble Lord and your Lordships—the noble Lord shakes his head; he is an accountant as am I, but neither of us are pilots—that Eurocontrol is very highly-thought-of in world air traffic circles. The noble Lord believes that Eurocontrol covers a comparatively small area. I do not think that is necessarily the case in Europe. Indeed, co-operation and association agreements with Eurocontrol already exist for Spain, Denmark, Italy, Greece and Portugal. Indeed, Portugal will become a full member once the new convention comes into force.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I would not wish him to think me rude? It was only yesterday afternoon when I had discussions with his noble friend, who I expected to see here today, and in view of what I wanted to say, the noble Lord's appearance rather threw me.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness that I cannot resemble my noble friend day by day. I am afraid I am not seized of the entire conversation of my noble friend and the noble Baroness. Nevertheless, I hope I have endeavoured to reply to most of her questions. I shall indeed undertake to pass on the specific points which she has asked me to pass on.

Lord Northfield

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the problems to which he has referred are very well known to the Science Committee of the Council of Europe Assembly, which has now been trying for some years to get Eurocontrol to make annual reports to the Assembly committee with a view to co-ordinating all these complaints about it much more effectively and getting a more efficient and economic system? Up to now, quite contrary to what other bodies do, Eurocontrol has refused to report in this way to the Council of Europe Assembly. Would it not be a good idea and in everybody's interest, in view of what the Minister himself has said, to reopen the idea of an international assembly of this kind doing a little supervision?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, Eurocontrol, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware, is comprised of member states, and it is to their own member states that the representatives of Eurocontrol report.

Lord Carver

My Lords, in considering this question, would the noble Lord please bear in mind the extreme importance of NATO's air forces being kept properly trained?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I am very grateful for that question. We shall bear that very closely in mind.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, does not the noble Lord feel that it was quite unnecessary for him to apologise for appearing in a substitute capacity, because is this not another example of what we have heard described as flexible rostering?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, given the warm good wishes of the House, it appears that this form of flexible rostering, at least in our department, seems to work.