HL Deb 06 July 1982 vol 432 cc656-9

2.48 p.m.

Lord Chelwood

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government when they received the report of the Local Authorities Coordinating Body on Trading Standards on the subject of prescribed quantities of wine sold by the glass; which bodies consulted favoured legislation, which expressed serious reservations, and which were opposed; and whether they will now reconsider using their powers under the Weights and Measures Act 1963 to introduce an order.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, the report in question was received by my honourable friend the Minister for Consumer Affairs only on 24th June this year. I am sure your Lordships will understand that he is now considering its contents and the suggestion for statutory control.

Lord Chelwood

My Lords, is it correct to say that there was a surprising consensus of view among the 14 thoroughly representative consumer and trade organisations and the local authority associations consulted and that only two out of that 14 had any reservations at all? Did they not also conclude that the time is now ripe for legislation in this field, in a country which last year consumed 105million gallons of wine, and that legislation should be introduced on the same broad lines as already exists, thoroughly successfully, in, for example, Austria, Germany and France?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, as far as drinking in Austria Germany and France is concerned, I shall not weary your Lordships with my personal, or indeed governmental, observations on measurements or drinking. But as far as my noble friend's first question is concerned, I am sure he will know that the LACOTS conclusion was that this trade, together with the spirit trade, should now be subject—to quote their words— to some form of regulation". Certainly the Government believe that regulation and enforcement is a particularly difficult area in this liquid trade (if we can call it such) since, I am sure your Lordships are aware, wines tend to vary with quality. This also has some bearing not just on the measure of wine but also on the price that is paid.

Lord Ardwick

My Lords, should there not also be a standard measure for the elastic restaurant carafe, which can vary from a niggardly half-litre to a full litre —a dangerously generous full litre?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, unlike the noble Lord, very few of us seem to find what he calls a generous full litre. I would confirm to him that under the Weights and Measures (Sale of Wine) Order 1976 in paragraph 2 it states that wine may only be sold in prepacked carafes in one of six measures—including, indeed, a half litre. If the noble Lord can get a generous measure of a litre, he is indeed lucky. Wine may be sold in 25 centilitres, 50 centilitres—that is his half litre—75 centilitres, one litre, or two imperial measures of 10 or 20 fluid ounces.

Lord Ardwick

My Lords, does this apply to restaurants as well as to retailers?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, it applies anywhere if you sell by carafe—retail, wholesale, restaurants, your Lordships' House. It applies in all of them.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether sherry comes into the report? Does he not agree that price as well as quality and quantity come into this? Is he aware that British Rail serves 14 glasses of sherry out of one bottle, which is the equivalent of over £13 a bottle?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, in my opinion my noble friend is extremely lucky if she can obtain sherry on British Rail. I congratulate her on her good fortune. However, I am not able to ascertain whether sherry, wine or derivates thereof are covered, first, by the Sale of Wine Order 1976 or, indeed, by other prescribed metric quantities for wine. But I understand that the prepackaging and labelling of wine and grape must is detailed in the EEC requirements. Whether sherry, its derivatives or the liquid that my noble friend was able to purchase on British Rail come within that definition, I am not sure, but I shall certainly ascertain the answer and write to her.

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, while fully supporting the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, in this matter, is the Minister aware that the undoubted increase in wine drinking by the glass—to which his noble friend has drawn attention—is due in part at least to an increasing realisation by beer drinkers that they are being defrauded of upwards £250,000 a year in short measure? If they are now to understand that they are being similarly defrauded in respect of wine, is it not high time that the Government acted to deal with both these abuses?

Would it not be very simple, administratively, to lay down a fixed measure for a glass of wine, as it is equally simply to phase out the brimful measure of beer and make the use of the oversized marked glass obligatory?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord was aware of my earlier reply, that wine is sold in varying qualities and that, of course, the price paid —the noble Lord used the phrase "being defauded"—can vary, or perhaps not, according to the opinion of the drinker and according to the quality of wine that the drinker thinks he is paying for or would wish to pay for.

On measurements and regulatory sizes, I am sure that the noble Lord and the House will be aware that it is extremely difficult to measure wine out of the bottle with the aid of what are customarily known as optic measurements. I am told that to upend a bottle of wine tends to destroy much of the quality, at least for drinkers of quality wine, to whom the noble Lord is referring.

Lord Derwent

My Lords, is it not abundantly clear by now that this is one of the most important questions that has come before your Lordships' House?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for his comment and I am proud to attempt to answer it.

Lord Glenkinglas

My Lords, will my noble friend not agree, as he has the good fortune to come from a better country than England, that if you have to drink whisky in this country you can hardly see it at the bottom of a glass. Will he not agree that if we are talking about drinking high quality wines, they are not drunk by the glass, they are drunk by the bottle, the magnum or the jeroboam? We are talking about reasonable wine at a sensible price in a sensible measure, a known measure.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I am ever flattered by my noble compatriot and friend that, coming from one side of the border, we drink reasonably and sensibly. Indeed, many of my compatriots do not have that reputation, but, as he points out, I note that reasonable consumption of reasonable wine should be able to be regulated or measured in some way. Indeed, the Government are looking into a reasonable method of achieving regulation of sales of wine by the glass. It requires much consultation and, indeed, it is very difficult to obtain a reasonable measure of what constitutes a glass. I understand that there are two measures: the Anglo-glass and the Euro-glass. The Euro-glass, naturally, is considerably larger than the other one. We have not yet come to a "Scotto-glass", but we shall come to that with another question.

Lord Wells-Pestell

My Lords, are the Government satisfied that proper measures are being employed in your Lordships' House?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I shall look into that and write to the noble Lord.

Lord Chelwood

My Lords, would my noble friend be very kind and publish in the Official Reportthe very brief conclusion reached by LACOTS in the report submitted to the Minister? Secondly, would he, his Minister, and perhaps the Minister's PPS, who succeeded me in Lewes, like to come on a short pub crawl with me so that I can convince them of the error of their ways?

Lord Lyell

My Lords, indeed, I should be most grateful to take up any invitation from my noble friend, but in a purely personal capacity. I would not wish to commit the Government to any such functions. I shall attempt to publish any conclusions in the Official Report.