HL Deb 05 July 1982 vol 432 cc611-3

7.5. p.m.

Report received.

Clause 1 [The "forfeiture rule"]:

Lord Mishcon moved Amendment No. 1:

Page 1, line 8, at end insert— ("(2) References in this Act to a person who has unlawfully killed another include a reference to a person who has unlawfully aided, abetted, counselled or procured the death of that other and references in this Act to unlawful killing shall be interpreted accordingly.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment to Clause 1 would add a new subsection. It is thought likely on the authorities that the forfeiture rule applies not only where the offender himself has done the unlawful killing, but also where he has aided, abetted, counselled or procured the death. This would also cover cases of aiding and abetting, counselling or procuring a person to commit suicide contrary to Section 2 of the Suicide Act 1961. Clearly, if the court can grant relief under this Bill to a person who has actually killed, then it should also be able to grant relief in this class of case as well, assuming of course that the forfeiture rule would or might be applied in such a case. The new subsection therefore ensures that no lacuna would be left here. I beg to move.

The Lord Advocate (Lord Mackay of Clashfern)

My Lords, the Government are content with the drafting of this amendment, as with the drafting of the other amendments that the noble Lord will propose at this Report stage. As your Lordships know, the Government are neutral on the principle of the Bill. Therefore, I have nothing to add to that.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 2 [Power to modify the rule]:

Lord Mishcon moved Amendment No. 2: Page 1, line 9, after ("that") insert ("the forfeiture rule has precluded").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, may I immediately say to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate that, again, I am most grateful for his benevolent neutrality and for all the help that he is giving, his department is giving and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor is giving in regard to this Bill, despite that neutrality.

With your Lordships' leave, perhaps I might conveniently deal with Amendments Nos. 2 to 5. As at present drafted, Clause 2 does not make it entirely clear that the Bill can have effect even where the offender has died—as sometimes happens, of course, the offender has killed himself shortly after realising what he has done—and it is someone else who is seeking to claim through him. This group of amendments—Amendments Nos. 2 to 5—removes the present tense from Clause 2(1) and makes consequential amendments later on in the clause, which remove any implication that the offender himself has to be still alive at the time of the proceedings for an order under this clause. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Mishcon moved Amendments Nos. 3, 4 and 5:

Page 1, line 11, leave out from beginning to ("from") in line 12.

Page 2, line 10, leave out ("acquire") and insert C' have acquired").

Page 2, line 22, leave out ("acquire") and insert ("have acquired").

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Mishcon moved Amendment No. 6:

Page 2, line 38, at end insert— ("(6A) The court shall not make an order under this section modifying the effect of the forfeiture rule in respect of any interest in property which, in consequence of the rule, has been acquired before the coming into force of this section by a person other than the offender or a person claiming through him.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this, of course, deals with a transitional point that I ventured to mention at the previous stage of the Bill. I hope that this new subsection is self-explanatory. Its effect is that, where interests have already passed before the commencement of that sub-section, those transactions cannot be reopened. The commencement of the subsection is the criterion here rather than the passing of the Bill, now that we have brought in a three-month delay before the provisions come into force.

If I may talk to them very quickly, the remaining amendments to Clause 7 simply tidy up subsection (4). I shall, of course, formally move them when we get to Clause 7.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 7 [Short title, commencement and extent]:

Lord Mishcon moved Amendment No. 7: Page 4, line 36, leave out from beginning to ("may") and insert ("Subject to section 2(6A) of this Act an order under section 2 of this Act or an order referred to in section 3(1) of this Act and made in respect of a person who has unlawfully killed another").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, as I have already explained, these remaining amendments to Clause 7 simply tidy up subsection (4). I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Mishcon moved Amendment No. 8: Page 4, line 38, leave out from beginning to end of line 39, and insert ("the coming into force of those sections.").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, in the absence of a 24-hour clock, I beg to move that the House do adjourn during pleasure until eight o'clock.—(Lord Skelmersdale.)

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The Sitting was suspended from 7.10 until 8 p.m.]