§ 11.21 a.m.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they are taking on behalf of Dr. Pinder-Wilson, the British archaeologist who has been sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment in Afghanistan.
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, we have been very concerned at newspaper and television reports that Dr. Pinder-Wilson has been put on trial in Kabul. Despite repeated representations, we have received no official confirmation that the trial has taken place or that sentence has been passed. We have continued to press the regime in Kabul urgently for clarification. We are in close touch with Dr. Pinder-Wilson's family and colleagues.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, a little reassured by that Answer, may I ask the Minister this: Is not Dr. Pinder-Wilson, a distinguished and respected scientist, Director of the British Institute for Afghan Studies? Is it not the case that he was in Kabul for cataloguing the findings in archeological studies over five years? Is there any evidence at all that he was engaged in political activities?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, Dr. Pinder-Wilson is a scholar with an international reputation, employed for many years as a Keeper of the British Museum. In the course of his archaeological work in Afghanistan over many years, he has gained an immense reputation in his field, not only in this country but throughout the world. I would, therefore, reply to the first question of the noble Lord that, yes, Dr. Pinder-Wilson is a distinguished academic and author.
So far as any evidence is concerned in this matter, it would not be right for me to comment on any of the allegations until we have an authoritative report from the Afghan authorities, and this is what we lack. But in case I give a wrong impression by simply giving that answer, meaning that the Government are not deeply concerned about the safety of one of our own citizens, may I refer again to my initial Answer? Dr. Pinder-Wilson is a very distinguished man.
§ Baroness Lane-FoxMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether he is aware that Dr. Pinder-Wilson's kinsmen and friends are especially concerned on account of his age and frailty as the result of a former attack of poliomyelitis and the fact that he also suffers from a duodenal ulcer?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that question, because indeed any information to the Government is valuable at the present time. I regret to have to say that we do not know where Dr. Pinder-Wilson is actually being held. Our acting consul was able to hand him clothing, cigarettes and books during their meeting on 15th April. So far as Dr. Pinder-Wilson's health is concerned, which is 459 the subject of the noble Baroness's question, on that occasion he appeared to be healthy but he was looking rather drawn.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord the Minister will enlighten the House a little on our diplomatic relations and the position of our Embassy or Consulate in Kabul. Have we full diplomatic links with the Afghan Government? Is there an Afghan diplomatic representative in London who could be summoned to the Foreign Office to explain this extraordinary state of affairs? Here is a British subject; apparently our representatives in Kabul are unable to discover where he is detained in prison and what the nature of the charges against him are. Has he been publicly tried or is he being publicly tried? There is a whole ocean of anxiety arising here. I am not criticising the noble Lord's administration, but we really are being left in the dark. In this sort of situation, short of any power in our diplomatic authorities to intervene, has the International Red Cross perhaps been consulted and asked if they can advise in this field? What are the conditions like in the Afghan prisons? There is a whole multitude of questions that arise. I do not want to embarrass the Minister with too many, but I can think of many more.
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, so indeed can I, but the serious difficulty is that Her Majesty's Government are cut off from consular access so far as Dr. Pinder-Wilson is concerned. I think the answer I should give to the noble and learned Lord is two-fold. First, we do not regard the Karmal régime as a Government, but this does not affect our ability to make consular representations in Kabul. We have indeed our representative in the Embassy; he is a Counsellor, and he is in touch with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Afghanistan. Secondly, what has happened in detail is that our chargé d'affaires in Kabul has made repeated representations and the Afghan chargé in London was summoned to the Foreign Office to receive a protest on 28th April because we are not securing consular access to Dr. Pinder-Wilson. I am bound to say that we have made a subsequent summons: it was not responded to.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that we have to face the fact that it is not so much the Afghan Government, it is the invading terrorist force that is there? That is what we have to acknowledge. The greatest irritant to them—it may not be the case with Dr. Pinder-Wilson—and what they are frightened of is the dissident voice. Would the noble Lord not give an assurance that we in this country through our Government will always make sure that the dissident voice, wherever it may be raised, will get our approval and support to be dissident?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, if I may confine myself to the serious subject of Afghanistan, so far as that is concerned, I think Her Majesty's Government have consistently made clear our opposition to all that has happened since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I would add that we will take all the steps we properly can to secure the release of Dr. Pinder-Wilson.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister respond to my question about the International Red Cross? It may be that they have no footing—I do not know—but they have an extraordinary power of penetrating the apparently impenetrable.
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, the difficulty is that what we have all been reading in the newspapers are reports which come either from TASS or from one of the newspapers of the Kabul press. We still do not have a reply from the Afghan Government, which is what we have been pressing for. When we know the facts—and we will, of course, continue to be very active in this matter—then one of the options certainly could be action through international organisations.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, would not the Minister deplore any partisan approach to this subject? Are not human rights being denied in 82 countries of the world, among them our own allies, Turkey, Indonesia and El Salvador, and ought not the issue of human rights to be above the conflict between the super powers?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, that is the case, but that is another question.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, would the Government consider an approach to the International Red Cross to ask whether they can find anything out, since we are cut off, in particular under Article 3 of the 1949 Convention, which would legitimate such an action on their part?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I think we would like to consider this, and indeed I will take this point away. But I repeat that the very great difficulty at the moment is the paucity of that information which we have been able to extract from Afghanistan. I do hope that by the time the Government next report to the House the situation will be very much better.