Chatham Dockyard: Employment (Hansard, 23 February 1982)

The Lord Bishop of Rochester
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)
My Lords, Chatham Dockyard will close in March 1984 after a previous rundown period. The future employment of the dockyard labour force must be a gradual and continuing process. We believe that some will accept transfers to other dockyards or to other Government departments. Some might be employed by existing and new enterprises in the Medway towns area. Interesting inquiries which could lead to the industrial use of part of the dockyard have already been received, but it is too soon to say whether they will come to fruition. The north-east Kent area has potential for development due to its proximity to London and the Continent. Communications are good and skills are available. The Government will support local initiatives to encourage new investment through their varied existing schemes for new technology, small business, training and now the enterprise allowance scheme. We believe that steady progress will be made.

The Lord Bishop of Rochester
My Lords, I am very 827 grateful to the Minister for his reply and for the element of real encouragement that it contains. However, will he not agree that, since to all intents and purposes the Royal Navy will have moved out by 1983, a fresh initiative is needed this year to call forth new employers of labour in a port which, as the Minister himself has suggested, has considerable potential? Lloyd's of London has benefited greatly by its move to Chatham. Is there no hope of one or more Government departments following in its footsteps?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I would say to the right reverend Prelate that the concern about the situation is quite real. Indeed, five Ministers from different departments have been down to Chatham in the last few months. Incidentally, the most recent visit was made by my own Secretary of State, in the last week or so. I know of the tremendous will that there is to help here. In this instance there is a time factor, which one does not always find. Bearing in mind all that is going on, and taking into account the skills and other "plusses" (if I may so describe them) to which the right reverend Prelate has referred, while one must be cautious about saying so, I think that here one would be more hopeful than is sometimes the case.

§ Lord Peart
My Lords, I am rather surprised at this—with five Ministers I hope that something comes out of it. All I can say is that there is tremendous criticism—

Several noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Peart
Is the Minister not aware that in another place there was a tremendous debate in which the Government were condemned by their own Back-Benchers for what they have done? Also, is the Minister not aware that the attitude of the Government shows that they have no desire to ensure that we have proper, adequate defence from the point of view of the Royal Navy? I think this is disgraceful.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the noble Lord raises one or two points. First of all, I would have thought that he would be pleased that in fact the number of Ministers that I mentioned had been to Chatham, because it shows the concern that exists.

§ Lord Peart
Oh!

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, had it not been that Ministers had gone in this way then it could clearly have been said that people were not interested. With respect, we cannot have it both ways. They did not go there just to have a run round the docks; they went to see what could be done by way of co-ordinating, together with the local authorities and all interested parties, that which has to be done. As to the other point that the noble Lord makes, that is his point of view; it is not mine.

§ Lord Byers
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it is not a fact that the Medway Enterprise 828 Agency is in the course of formation, patterned very largely on the London Enterprise Agency, which has been extremely successful in creating new jobs, and will this not help in the area?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. Yes, that is so. Indeed, other things as well are being done. I did not think that I should enumerate them now, but everybody who has an interest—and there are many such people—is trying very hard to help here.

§ Lord Mowbray and Stourton
My Lords, is there a chance that this Government, which (like the last Government, I would hasten to add, also) have such a good record in art matters, might give consideration, perhaps, to the historic wharfhouse area at Chatham possibly being used by the Maritime Museum, which I think the noble Lord would agree with me has such a good record in this way and perhaps might be desirous of expansion?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I understand that a document has recently been compiled by the county council on the historic dockyard at Chatham. I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this point, because it is an area which is being looked at just now.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, with the growing all-party and non-party dismay, especially among those who served in the Royal Navy—and I hope the Minister is aware that I have no party position here; I was a Portsmouth rating, not a Chatham rating—there is a widespread feeling that if a 12-month stay of execution for the Royal Naval dockyard could be looked at again seriously by the Government it would be for the benefit, many feel, of Chatham? I ask that one question.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, in answer to that I think I can only say that here we have the situation of a run-down over a two-year period, which is much longer than one would normally find. I hope that to some extent that covers the point that the right reverend Prelate makes. Beyond that, clearly, I could not go today.

§ Baroness Sharples
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether small businesses will have the opportunity to be established at Chatham?

§ Lord Bellwin
Indeed, my Lords, this was the point that the noble Lord, Lord Byers, was referring to when he spoke of the Enterprise Agency. I am glad of the opportunity to confirm, as he did, that we as a Government are having very great success all round the country with these agencies. Indeed, I hope that the point which my noble friend makes will be borne out as regards helping small businesses in this way.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, why should we assume, because of the noble Lord's Answer to this Question, that the Government have said the final word on our defence preparations and organisation? Is the Minister not aware that in another place, and also in this 829 House, there are grave doubts about whether we should proceed along the lines of preparing for nuclear defence or for conventional defence? Would it not be better in the circumstances, because of many rumours flying about and many doubts which exist in many influential quarters, to wait until the next White Paper on Defence is presented to the House?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I understand that in fact it is not an "either/or" situation that we are talking about. If it was, then that would be another matter. The issue of whether or not the Trident and the other nuclear defence projects proceed or do not proceed is one thing; but this matter of the closure of the dockyard is an issue on its own, and has been looked upon by the Government in that way.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, is there any chance that maybe if we manage to preserve HMS "Warrior", our very first ironclad warship, which we should, then she should be returned to Chatham, which was her original home and which would be a very fine base at which she could be preserved?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I fear I cannot help the noble Viscount with that.