§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have to improve recruitment to the nursing profession in the National Health Service.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Elton)My Lords, over the Government's first two years of office the number of trained nurses in the National Health Service, expressed in whole-time equivalents, rose by 21,000. The noble Lord may perhaps regard this as a market of modest success achieved by existing policies.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask him whether he appreciates that many of these state registered nurses and state enrolled nurses who comprise that figure started their training some two or three years ago and that what has happened in subsequent years is that it is dropping off? May I also ask him this: in so far as there has been some concern in the nursing profession about remuneration, will he allow the National Council to try to put things right and remove this injustice? Since Halsbury, the average wage, inflation notwithstanding, has risen by 3 per cent. but for nurses it has dropped by 3 per cent. I am sure the National Council wish to put that right—
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, can I ask the noble Lord whether the Government—
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, as to the first part of the noble Lord's Question, I am not aware that an increase in 21,000 represents a decline in recruitment. As to the second part of his question, I shall refuse, as I refused last week, to follow him into a debate on nurses' pay which it would not be proper to pursue either in terms of this question or in terms of the negotiations now going on.
§ Lord Wells-PestellMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is in a position to tell the House how many nurses have had to withdraw during training as a result of lack of accommodation and to what extent we have had to rely more and more upon agency nurses?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I am afraid I could not catch what it was that the nurses have had to withdraw because of.
§ Lord Wells-PestellMy Lords, I apologise if I was not distinct. How many nurses have had to withdraw from training owing to lack of accommodation?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, no, I am not aware of the answer and I shall have to write to the noble Lord.
Lord Wallace of CoslanyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, while the figures he gave are certainly to some extent encouraging, there is still a shortage of nurses in many areas? Furthermore, is he aware that now in recent months training places have been reduced because of the financial restrictions imposed on health authorities and that many would-be nurses are restricted and unable to take up training for some considerable time?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, there are inequalities over the country both between areas and between specialisms. 3 The Government are aware of these and seek to reach a balance in their policies for recruitment. In London that is particularly the case, and I am aware of what the noble Lord says.
Lord Wallace of CoslanyMy Lords, the noble Lord has not referred to the training places having been reduced. In the South-East and Metropolitan areas that is certainly the case.
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, as I say, things differ from one area to another, but the current increase in the number of nurses working seems to me to be good news, not bad.
§ Lord Wells-PestellMy Lords, as the noble Lord was good enough to say that he would write to me regarding the first part of my question, may I ask him to include an answer to the second part of my question with regard to agency nurses?
§ Lord EltonYes, my Lords.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, may I assume from the noble Lord's answer to me, for which I am grateful, that this time when the National Council meets—not as in previous years such as last year and the year before—there will be no Government interference? Will they be free to negotiate the rise which the nurses think they are entitled to have?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I really do think that is another question and not a subject we should pursue now.
§ Baroness JegerMy Lords, while we welcome the increase in nursing recruitment, can the noble Lord refer to the number of nurses who are unemployed? Is he aware that in another place the figure for last September was given as over 5,000 nurses, many of whom are seeking employment which they cannot get because of cuts in the money available?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, the profession is a large one and the figure is not relatively large when you consider that not every nurse is going to live next to every vacancy. There really is a question of adjustment, and people sometimes do not want to work where the work is.