HL Deb 04 February 1982 vol 426 cc1393-5

3.3 p.m.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose in response to the findings of the report of the Commission of the EEC on social affairs, which shows that 30 million people in Europe are living in poverty, including 1,241,000 households in Britain.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Elton)

My Lords, the final report to which the noble Lord refers was received from the Commission within the past three weeks and it is still being studied.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether this report does not indicate that there should be a redistribution of wealth? Is it tolerable that in our society there should be golden handshakes of £75,000, that a family at a table in a restaurant will spend on one meal what others have for a whole week, and that tens of thousands of pounds should be given for kicking a ball, for hitting a ball or for cueing a ball? Are not our social values all wrong?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the noble Lord addresses himself to a slightly wider question than that on the Order Paper. But I would say that in the short time that we have had the report before us we have seen that, of the nine countries with which it deals, only one has a lower proportion of householders in poverty than we do.

Lord Gladwyn

My Lords, may I ask whether the report indicates how many of the 30 million people in Europe alleged to be living below the poverty line inhabit Europe east of the Iron Curtain?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the report concerns itself with nine countries only—the Community excluding Greece.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that people who are experiencing and suffering poverty in this country will in no way be able to take great comfort from his answer that there are many others in Europe suffering poverty as well? Does he not agree that this report reflects the absurdity of the situation in our own island that we are paying millions and millions to keep able-bodied men and women, young and middle-aged, out of work?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I would not entirely accept that definition. Of course we do not take comfort from other people's discomfort. I have sufficiently often from this Dispatch Box spoken of the importance which this Government give to getting the economy right to lift all of us out of poverty, so I will not weary the House by repeating that argument.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, when the report has been studied, will the Government be bringing forward to the Houses of Parliament their comments and recommendations on the proposals?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I think I would be rash before we have studied the report to say what we shall do with it.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, the Minister has referred to getting the economy right. Does not the fact that this situation exists all over capitalist Europe show that it is not a matter of getting it right, but one of transforming it to democratic socialism?

Lord Elton

My Lords, if the rules of order permitted it, I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he thought that Poland was a good example of the cause he advances.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, Poland is not an example of democratic socialism.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is a much larger proportion of people in misery for one reason or another on the other side of the Iron Curtain than in capitalist Europe?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I am obliged to my noble friend for underlining that aspect of things. But we are in danger of straying beyond the terms of the Question.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, without wishing to engage in a competition about misery, may I ask whether the Commission made any recommendations as to how this grave problem should be dealt with?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord has asked me to go farther than I wish to go until I am more familiar with the report. It has suggested a second European programme on poverty similar to the one which we engaged in ourselves which I think finished last year.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, as a matter of information, is there such a thing as a democratic socialist Government in Europe? If there is, is it doing better than we are?

The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Earl Ferrers)

My Lords, with respect, I think we are going very far wide of the original Question. It might be appropriate if we now moved on to the next one.