§ Lord BeloffMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they propose to take in respect of the decision of the National Union of Students to call for a weekof disruption in the universities, polytechnics and colleges.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Elton)My Lords, it is to be hoped that students will not disrupt institutions and courses and thus hinder their own academic progress; but the response to any incidents which may occur must remain the responsibility of the institutions concerned.
§ Lord BeloffMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his encouraging reply, may I ask whether it is not the case that the organisation, the National Union of Students, which has given this excessively foolish advice is wholly financed out of public funds diverted from their proper purpose of providing student amenities in individual universities, polytechnics and colleges? Can the House be told what sum of money is involved?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, the National Union of Students draws its income from the affiliation fees paid to it by student unions in individual institutions and universities. The question of whether they affiliate or not is for them to decide. The sum of money which the noble Lord asked about is not a matter of return to the Government, but press reports lead us to believe that it is about £1 million.
§ Lord Wynne-JonesMy Lords, will the noble Lord not agree that the action taken by the Government against all forms of higher education—
§ Lord Wynne-Jones—is one which inevitably draws a response? Will the noble Lord bear in mind that once the statement was made (I will not say it in the original French): " This animal is very dangerous; when attacked, it defends itself "?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, if that was not another question, I would say that there is always a response 1290 to Government action; but there is proper response and improper response. Students go into universities to acquire knowledge and hopefully, in addition, to acquire wisdom. That is not always obtained by disrupting the institutions in which that activity takes place.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords—
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, may I thank the noble Baroness for allowing me to speak first? May I ask what this alleged disruption is about? Is it not the practice of students always to cause disruption of one kind or another? Is this some new form?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I would not wish to dismiss that flippantly. The form, I think, varies from generation to generation of students, and so does the pretext—which at the moment is basically economic.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, does the noble Lord not agree that student protests and student rags are part of the democratic structure of this country? Would it not be much nicer to read the student protestations as student rags and not create a situation like that in Poland? Is it not dangerous to applaud what Solidarity is doing and then to kick our own students in the teeth for exercising the freedom to which they are entitled?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I see nothing illogical in defending the functions of institutions of learning from those who seek to disrupt them and to prevent them from doing what they set out to do. That is the only aspect of the demonstration which I have said is a matter of concern. The noble Lord may have as happy memories of other forms of student indiscipline as I have; and I felicitate him upon them.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords—
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, I am glad that women get a look in at the end. May I ask the Minister whether he has looked at the document which outlines the NUS plans for action beginning on March 1st? Is it not quite a responsible document? No student is going to be involved in doing anything for the whole week, but, possibly, one day. Would he not agree that the students have something to be worried about?—their grant will be increased by only 4 per cent., which is well below the rate of inflation; the parental contribution is frozen at its present level and the minimum grant is frozen. They have something to take action about. Would the noble Lord not agree that this will be political experience for the students, and that political experience is something that students ought to learn and to go in for?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, orderly, constructive demonstration was not the subject of the Question. The Question referred to disruption, and that is what I answered. The more orderly and constructive the way in which a body can make its opinion felt, the more effective in the end it will be upon those to 1291 whom it is addressed. Any move in this direction is welcome.
§ Lord GlenamaraMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, under the Government's constraints, a great many students up and down the country are now suffering very real hardship? Is he aware that many students are not getting sufficient to eat? Is he aware that many students are not buying the books that they are supposed to be buying? Is he aware that this is affecting the middle income group in the main where the assumed parental contribution is not being made? Is he aware that, in this PR age, the week of protest is about the only way in which they can make their grievance felt?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, the noble Lord's series of questions opens a whole line of responses. My response in that circumstance is merely to say that the Government's economic restraints cannot be applied less stringently to those who are not in work but are learning at public expense than it is to those who are in work.
§ Lord RobbinsMy Lords, the original Question referred to " disruption " presumably of a disorderly kind. Is the Minister aware that when disruption has occurred in the past—as it has, unfortunately, on many occasions—the proportion of students involved has been fractional?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I am greatly obliged to the noble Lord for doing something to put the character of our national student body into a proper perspective. It is those who seek to deny freedom of speech—for instance to visitors—who bring it into disrepute. If I may add to that, I think those students merely demonstrate in a small, shrill way an affinity in one respect with Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin—that is, an instinctive fear of the truth.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Earl Ferrers)My Lords, interesting though this subject is, I rather fancy that we have given it a fair run. Perhaps it might be for the convenience of your Lordships if we move on to the next Question.