HL Deb 14 December 1982 vol 437 cc475-7

2.49 p.m.

Viscount Massereene and Ferrard

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in their opinion fines are the correct sentence for those persons on social security who infringe the law, and whether some corrective treatment in the form of service to the community would not be more appropriate.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)

My Lords, it is the courts that must decide what sentence is appropriate in individual cases, because they know both the facts of the case and the circumstances of the offender. A fine may be appropriate even for those in receipt of social security benefits. In fixing the amount and making the order for payment, the offender's means will be taken into account and payment arranged by instalments where appropriate. Particularly for relatively minor offences this may well be more appropriate than a community service order.

Viscount Massereene and Ferrard

My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, I should like to ask him the same question but in a different form. I do not want to catch him unawares. What happens in the case of a man who is on national assistance and who refuses to pay his deserted wife maintenance? There is not much point in him doing some social service in that situation. What happens to his wife and children if they do not receive alimony?

Lord Elton

My Lords, reluctant as my noble friend is to catch me unawares, I am afraid he has succeeded. I can tell my noble friend that the punishment imposed by a court is imposed in the light of the knowledge not only of the offence but of the offender's means. I understood that that was the area to which my noble friend wished me to address myself. As to what they would do to relieve the condition of the person aggrieved by the offence, I shall have to write to my noble friend.

Viscount Massereene and Ferrard

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. I am simply trying not to bring the law into disrepute. Will my noble friend not agree that if you fine a man for an offence and the taxpayer pays, he is very likely to commit a similar offence? It surely will encourage him to do this. But I do not want to question my noble friend further.

Lord Elton

My Lords, I think I should respond to that very graceful question by saying that the sanction is reflected not so much in the fine itself as in the sacrifices a person may have to make in order to pay it. Of course, social security benefits are not increased to enable people to pay their fines, so there is an element of punishment involved in this.

Lord Kaldor

My Lords, at the same time as the Minister is making inquiries as regards the noble Viscount's first supplementary question, will he inquire as to whether a fine imposed on a person on supplementary benefit will affect the disregards which are habitually given in calculating the benefits?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I shall of course inquire, but the effect which I understand is exerted by these provisions is that people finish up with money to live on that is less than they otherwise would have by the amount of the fine, which may be spread over a period of time.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, would the noble Lord use the same criteria in imposing sanctions against those who infringe the social security laws as are used in the case of those who infringe the laws on income tax?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the noble Lord asked me what I would do with people in either condition. Of course, I am not in a position to do anything except inform the House of what is the law as it stands.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lord, has the noble Lord any figures that he can give the House on the results of the DHSS fraud squad's investigation?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I could not hear what it was the the DHSS had inquired about.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lords, I understood that the fraud squad were carrying out an investigation into offences relating to social security benefits. Can the noble Lord say whether any results have been made known and whether he has any figures to give the House?

Lord Elton

My Lords, that is very wide of the Question on the Order paper, but I will write to the noble Lord.