§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they approve of the various institutions of peace studies and related disciplines in our higher educational bodies as training grounds for teachers to instruct senior school children in methods of international problem solving.
§ The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Young)My Lords, the powers of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science relate to specific courses of teacher training and not to whole institutions as such or to parts of them.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is the noble Baroness, Lady Young, aware that the necessity for this Question is solely due to her refusal to allow me a second supplementary when I asked a similar Question very recently——
§ Lord Hatch of Lusby—and when she invited me to put down another Question? May I ask the noble Baroness whether or not she has read her Answer to my previous Question and noticed, in replying both to me and to other noble Lords who asked supplementary questions, her constant use of the word "indoctrination" in connection with these studies? Will the noble Baroness reconsider this word, and does she agree that genuine peace studies have nothing to do with indoctrination but everything to do with giving students an opportunity of learning how international problems are and can be solved?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I did in fact read the exchange between the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, and myself at Question Time a short while ago. I do not in any way retract anything that I said about indoctrination in schools because I, and I believe all noble Lords, believe that sensitive subjects must be presented in a balanced way for children in schools. On the question of peace studies, I have taken the 175 opportunity to look at the published prospectus of the peace studies course at the University of Bradford and, having looked at it, I am bound to say that its aims have reinforced my concern that any school course dealing with sensitive areas such as peace studies which puts forward a deliberately unbalanced version of events would be completely unacceptable.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, does this not give us a great opportunity, because if the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, knows teachers who can instruct senior school children in methods of international problem solving, this is a marvellous discovery; and can he perhaps apply it to the leaders of the world who have great difficulty in so doing?
§ Lord BeloffMy Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that, while there are well-known and established international disciplines known as international law and international relations in our major universities, there is no genuine discipline (nor could there be) in something called "peace studies"? Would she not further agree that therefore, prima facie, this cannot be dictated by a wish that children should learn more about the very real problems to which the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, has just referred?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords, I agree with my noble friend.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, would the noble Baroness the Minister not approve of a well-balanced political education being provided in our schools—not indoctrination in any way, but a balanced study of political education?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady David, knows well, political studies take place in many schools. Many issues, such as the issues of war and peace, form part of history or geography teaching, possibly, or even of English. Provided that they are taught in a balanced way, this is quite a proper part of the school curriculum. What we were discussing earlier was a different issue.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, before we confuse ourselves by over-simplifying the problems of the world by suggesting that part of the school curriculum can overcome them, will my noble friend Lady Young tell me how many international bodies—educational or otherwise—have ever solved an international problem?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I believe that is a question of which I would require quite long notice.
§ Lord Lloyd of KilgerranMy Lords, in view of the reference by the noble Baroness the Minister to the desirability that sensitive studies should be taught in a balanced way, can she indicate whether any guidance is given as to the form of the syllabi which should be adopted in the senior schools referred to in the Question?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, as the noble Lord is 176 aware, education is a devolved service in this country, and the content of the syllabus rests very largely with the local educational authorities and with the teachers themselves. We have to rely on the professional integrity of teachers. If parents are concerned about what is going on, they have a right to go not only to the head teacher but to the local educational authority about that matter. I would have thought, and I believe it to be true, that the overwhelming majority of teachers would act professionally in teaching these subjects.
§ Lord Lloyd of KilgerranMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Baroness.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, since the noble Baroness agrees with the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, that there can be no such thing as peace studies—at least in our major universities—because it does not make sense, has she anything to say about the existence of a chair of war studies at King's College, London?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I think that is the subject of another Question.
§ Lord HaleMy Lords, may I just refer to the great mass of English literature, and particularly its poetry, which is largely devoted to peace, and say that the study of the greatest of English poets does produce peace of mind, which is of advantage in these circumstances?
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, will the noble Baroness observe, and tell her noble friends behind her, that in many countries in the world, particularly in Scandinavia and in the United States of America, many new methods have been and are being developed to teach children the methods of problem studying and problem solution? Does she agree that it is somewhat hypocritical to attach the word "indoctrination" to peace studies, either in schools or in universities, when her own Foreign and Commonwealth Office are sending out to schools unsolicited pamphlets and leaflets of a pro-nuclear character, two of which I would quote to her, The Balanced View and Peace and Disarmament? Is it not hypocritical to suggest that the Government do not like indoctrination in schools? Both these pamphlets are sent out unsolicited.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, there are many occasions under the school curriculum when pupils have to solve problems and study them. I have no doubt that in the course of some history and English lessons they look at the issues of war and peace. May I say that the noble Lord is quite wrong about what has happened with regard to material sent from the Foreign Office. What happened was that the National Union of Teachers suggested to Foreign Office Ministers that there was a need in schools for balanced factual material about disarmament. After giving notice to the local education authorities, the Foreign Office distributed such material, linking it to the recent United Nations Special Session on Disarmament.
§ Viscount HanworthMy Lords, does not the noble Baroness agree that it is unfortunately true that many teachers go straight from university into teaching, and 177 that there is a very strong link between the teacher and the people taught? Therefore, not having had an opportunity of getting a reasonable and balanced point of view in the outside world, the danger of putting across points of view that are extreme but not balanced far outweighs anything the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, mentioned about a mere pamphlet from the Ministry.
§ Lord DerwentMy Lords, before my noble Leader answers that, if she is going to, have we not had enough of this Question?
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, as my veracity has been questioned—
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we have had nineteen minutes on two Questions. I think it would be the wish of the House that we should move on to the next Question.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, as my veracity—
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, it might be helpful if I say this to the noble Lord, Lord Hatch. He prefaced his first supplementary question by saying that I had refused him a question before. That was not the case; it is not in my power to refuse him a question. When I suggest that we move on, I hope he will understand that I am trying to take into account the wishes of the House.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, I feel sure that my noble friend would agree that we have spent sufficient time on this Question.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, as my veracity—
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I am sorry to have to speak to the noble Lord again. I am most grateful for the support of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, and I am sure that both he and noble Lords feel that we should move to the next Question now.