Engineering Education in Schools

HL Deb 07 December 1982 vol 437 cc109-11

Lord Beloff

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what efforts are being made to encourage more schoolboys and schoolgirls to engage in studies leading to careers in engineering.

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, the Government recognise that the encouragement of young people into the engineering professions depends crucially on what schools can do to arouse pupils' interests and ambitions, and to equip them with the right range of knowledge, skills and attitudes. Direct responsibility for this rests, in England and Wales, with individual schools and their local education authorities. Nevertheless, in their guidance document, The School Curriculum, published jointly in March 1982, my right honourable friends the Secretaries of State for Education and Science and for Wales stressed the need for all pupils to study both mathematics and science throughout their years of compulsory schooling, and emphasised the value of studies in craft, design and technology. They also emphasised the importance of better and more systematic careers education and guidance for all pupils, with particular reference to their subject choices. More recently, the Government have announced a new technical and vocational education initiative, which will encourage and support studies in engineering and related areas.

Lord Beloff

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for having, on his first appearance in this capacity, made so lengthy and illuminating an answer. May I ask him whether he agrees that the teaching of English, particularly the writing of prose and the presentation of matter in English, is equally important for budding engineers?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for the kind remarks which he has made. I think it is one of the main objectives of the Government in the field of education to improve standards in all subjects, and English must be one of those.

Lord Blyton

My Lords, after training these engineers, can the noble Earl the Minister say where we will get the jobs for them, with 4½ million unemployed?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I think that that is somewhat wide of the subject. But the better trained and educated they are, the more chance they will have of finding the jobs that are available.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, while agreeing with all that the Minister said—up to the last sentence, anyhow—and, also, with all that the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, said, may I ask the Minister whether he will be very dubious about vocational training courses in schools? Does he not think that 16 is early enough to do the job that young people are going to do for the next 50 years? Is it not more important in schools to let them browse in the fields of learning, rather than gorge at the trough?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, this, obviously, crosses the line between where education finishes and training begins; but I would not agree entirely with what the noble Lord has said. It is important to have a good grounding, especially in view of what the noble Lord said about there being fewer and fewer jobs.

Lord Lee of Newton

My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that there is a great deal of snobbery-attached to the teaching profession, and that many teachers are giving the impression that to go and work with your hands is proof that you are a failure?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, this is one of the problems that we need to get over. Up to now, an education in technology and in industry has not, perhaps, been considered as much a status symbol as education in some of the social services, in the law or in medicine. This is something which the Government are trying to get over with their various initiatives.

Baroness David

My Lords, may I also congratulate the Minister on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box, particularly as I understand that he is "undertaking education"? Is he aware of a paper from the Director-General of the National Economic Development Council on education in industry, where he is highly critical of the training given in schools as being inadequate for industry and engineering? He comments particularly unfavourably on the examination system, with its academic orientation, and also on teachers' inexperience of industry. Will any note be taken of this, particularly in regard to the examination system? I understand that decisions are still to be taken about that.

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness very much for her kind words. I am glad she agrees with me that I am definitely in need of some education, and I hope that I may get it at the DES. As I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, the Government issued a Statement in May, 1982, on the new 17-plus examination. This is intended primarily for those young people who wish to continue their full-time education in school or in further education, and who have set their sights on employment rather than higher education, but have not yet decided on a particular job. It is very important that the arrangements for these examinations should be acceptable to all concerned, and the Government are in consultation with these bodies to that end. Turning to teachers, the Government are aware that some of them have themselves left school, gone to college and then gone into teaching. They therefore do not know a lot about the outside world, especially industry. Action is being taken in order to encourage teachers to take in-service training with the help of industry itself, which is helping them over this difficulty.

Baroness David

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the paper by the Director-General to which I referred appeared only in November, and that he particularly referred to the 16-plus examinations?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I was not aware of that.