Technical Education and Training (Hansard, 2 December 1982)

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Young)
My Lords, the Prime Minister announced the initiative after close consultation between the Secretaries of State for Education and Science and Employment and the chairman of the Manpower Services Commission.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, does she, particularly as an ex-Minister of State for Education, think it was satisfactory that the local authority associations, which provide the education, were not consulted 1312 beforehand at all? As Mr. Lawton, chairman of the ACC Education Committee, said that the MSC involved fundamental constitutional questions which suggested that the Government were prepared to make changes in the 1944 Act, can the Minister say if such changes to the Act are proposed in order to make it possible for 14-year-olds to leave school and follow courses in FE colleges, or are they relying on the Employment Act 1973, Sections 2(1) and 13(1)? Is she aware that there are very grave doubts and anxieties about children being allowed to leave school at the age of 14?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, there is to be no change in the 1944 Act. The children in fact will remain in school, though they will take courses possibly in colleges of further education, and the powers used will be those of Section 2(1) and Section 13(1) of the Employment and Training Act 1973. The Government felt it was important to go ahead with the scheme in 1983 and I am glad to confirm that the Secretary of State for Education and Science, the Secretary of State for Wales and the chairman of the Manpower Services Commission have met representatives of the local education authorities.

§ Lord Byers
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness would accept that this initiative on vocational and technical training is widely welcomed in many parts of this country?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am very glad to have that response from the noble Lord, Lord Byers. It was, of course, a point that was raised in a recent debate in your Lordships' House.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, as Mr. David Young of the Manpower Services Commission has said, in an article that he wrote in The Times Educational Supplement, that students in these schemes would probably be preparing for qualifications given by the City and Guilds, the Business Education Council, the Technical Education Council and the Royal Society of I Arts, and as courses for such qualifications are currently being given in FE colleges, can the Minister explain to me how this is going to be such a new initiative and how it will be different, except for the funding coming from the MSC instead of the DES and the local authorities?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, as the noble Baroness is aware, the proposal is for 10 pilot schemes. These are to be set up in consultation with local education authorities, the details of which have still to be worked out. I confirm what the noble Baroness said, that it is intended that they will lead to specific qualifications such as the craft and technician awards of the CGLI and the general and national certificates and diplomas of the Business and Technical Education Councils.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, if I may ask a supplementary question while in no way dissenting from what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Byers, will the Government undertake to do everything in their power to see that the MSC does not embark on a collision course with the local education authorities, as collaboration is of the essence in this field?

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am glad to confirm that a national steering group is being set up, on which educational interests will be well represented, and this organisation will agree guidelines and criteria for submission of bids on this scheme. The chairman and director of the Manpower Services Commission, in consultation with the DES, will be having further discussions with the various parties concerned.

§ Lord Byers
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness would consider—because there is no need for a collision course at all—making it clear to the people of this country that the principles which were learned through the experience of ORT, the Organisation for Rehabilitation and Training, of which Mr. David Young is the chairman, are going to be applied to this scheme and it has had tremendous success in other parts of the world. I do not think we ought to prejudge what could be achieved through this opportunity and option for children to go into the vocational stream at the age of 14, instead of into the academic stream.

§ Baroness Young
My Lords, I am very glad to hear what the noble Lord has said. We believe that this is an important new initiative, and the response of the local education authorities has been encouraging. Some 16 authorities have already expressed interest in it, so in fact it looks as though the scheme will be oversubscribed.