HL Deb 01 December 1982 vol 436 cc1235-6

2.40 p.m.

Lord Melchett

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Rayner Review of the Nature Conservancy Council staffing and organisation will take into account the full range of the NCC's statutory duties, functions and related obligations and the extent to which these are matched by the NCC's existing resources.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, the terms of reference for the Rayner Review provide for these matters to be taken into account and for the Nature Conservancy Council's staffing and organisation to be examined accordingly.

Lord Melchett

My Lords, if that is the case, can the noble Earl explain why the words contained in the Question on the Order Paper were deleted from the scrutineer's terms of reference at the last minute by the Government, without consultation with the NCC, and without its agreement?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, in the opinion of the Government the words were otiose. We believe that when one speaks of a council's statutory duties it is implicit that one is speaking of the full range of those duties.

Lord Hunt

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there are several thousand SSSIs around the country, of which several hundred are damaged or destroyed annually through trespass, sale, or other causes? Will he ensure that the Rayner Review Body take these facts into account when considering the staff implications?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I am sure that those points will be taken into account in the review body's scrutiny of the organisation and staffing of the Nature Conservancy Council.

Baroness White

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that additional responsibilities have been placed on every regional water authority in the country and on the land drainage authorities by the Wildlife and Countryside Act, and that these additional responsibilities that they are carrying out will almost inevitably result in extra work for the Nature Conservancy Council; and that the progress will be scrutinised very closely indeed by those of us who are . interested in the matter?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Baroness's intervention. I shall of course bring the point to the attention of my right honourable friend.

Lord Melchett

My Lords, the noble Earl answered the first part of my supplementary question but not the second part. Can he give an assurance that the scrutineer will take into account the extent to which the NCC's existing resources match their existing statutory responsibilities—the full range of those responsibilities?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, in the opinion of the Government, it will be impossible for the scrutineering officer to conduct his review, which is a review of staffing organisations and systems, without having regard to the extent to which the manpower resources of the council match their current obligations.

Lord Stanley of Alderley

My Lords, can my noble friend tell me of any instance so far where a site has been damaged because of lack of funds by the NCC? Would he agree that, perhaps, if we talked a little less about the problems of the Wildlife and Countryside Act we might all get on a little bit better.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, with regard to the second part of my noble friend's supplementary question, I hope there are not very many problems. With regard to the first part, perhaps I may read what the Director-General of the Nature Conservancy Council wrote in The Times just the other day: The Secretary of State for the Environment, at his own request, is informed of any cases where the special interest of such sites would be damaged or destroyed because of insufficient funds. He has on a number of occasions provided additional money to safeguard these sites and we have every reason to believe he will continue to do so".

Lord Melchett

My Lords, no doubt the noble Earl is aware that the Government are currently in breach of the Berne Convention, which they recently ratified, because the NCC do not have sufficient staff resources at regional level with which to carry out the new international obligations that that international convention placed upon this country?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, that is slightly wide of the Question, so I cannot confirm it.