Playgrounds and Playing Fields (Hansard, 22 April 1982)

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)
My Lords, no. This is for local authorities themselves to decide.

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, am I right, or is my hearing failing? Did the noble Lord say, "No"? Is he aware that if he said that he will not encourage 623 local authorities not to sell off playing grounds, we are undermining the future of Britain? The playing fields of Britain are important for the men of the future, and not only from Eton. Most of the men of the future do not come from Eton. May I point out—

Noble Lords
No!

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, I said "May I". May I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that in the country districts of England, far from England's countryside being an adventure playground, the streets of the villages are limited? When a village school closes and the village playground goes, because of the intense agriculture and farming, children cannot kick a ball around.

Noble Lords
Speech!

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, will the noble Lord, therefore, please encourage local authorities? Will he help to keep a register of playing fields in local areas that should be kept alive, and thus encourage the National Playing Fields Association and the noble Lord, Lord Luke, who for 30 years has been the chairman of that organisation?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble Lord has amply demonstrated not only the acuteness of his hearing but also the fact that there are some games that one can play without any playing fields at all. I think I should point out to the noble Lord that it does not always follow that an abandoned school has its playing field in the area where playing space is most needed, and the best thing may be to sell that and buy another one in a better place. The only people who can decide that are the local authority—not central Government. As to the need for an actual reduction in the number of schools, I think I should remind the noble Lord that in his own part of the country, and indeed all over the country, it is considerable. The department carried out a study of school buildings, which was published in 1977. That resulted in an estimate that, by 1986, there would be over 3 million primary and secondary school places surplus to requirement. We do not, of course, intend to close all of them, but the target is 1.3 million.

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he has given the number of primary school places? It is the number of playing fields that I am interested in.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, maybe the noble Lord's hearing is not as good as I thought it was. I said primary and secondary schools.

§ Lord Balfour of Inchrye
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, in view of the fact that in the technological years ahead leisure will be one of the most important things we can have in this country, and can teach people to use, it would be wise for the Government to regard every open space as precious for the future, and not to desecrate it by building, if it is possible to avoid doing so?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I have great sympathy with the emotional appeal of what my noble friend has said, but the fact remains that there are some open spaces that are not much use. One of the virtues of the new regulations which the department has brought out is that the only area which will count towards a minimum play area for a school is one which can be used for team games, and which can be expected to be usable for seven hours a week. That does not mean that there will not be flower beds, coppices and so on, but it does mean that all the play space that is available is usable. When that sort of space becomes available, no doubt there will be a very strong case for its retention for public use. But the people who can determine whether it is the best place for public use are not central Government, nor the Department of Education, but the local authority.

§ Lord Stanley of Alderley
My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend is aware that one of the problems when a school closes is that the trustees of that school's playing ground cease to get any rent? Therefore, they cannot pay any rates to the local authority and they have to sell the playing ground. I wonder whether my noble friend could tell me what action, if any, the Government, or local government, could take to allow these playing fields to remain playing fields?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I understand the noble Lord's difficulty. I can tell him that there is statutory provision for local authorities to give discretionary rate relief in respect of charitable bodies. If the noble Lord will bear with me, I shall try to give him more particular information in writing.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that the standard which has been laid down is that there should be six acres of recreational or free ground for every 1,000 people in the population? If the Minister accepts that this is so—and I gather this is a generally accepted doctrine—will he not go back to my noble friend's original Question, which was to encourage local authorities not to sell off playgrounds and open spaces, since, particularly around urban areas, this means even more crowding and far less open space, which is detrimental to the social life of the community?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I shall not remind the noble Baroness of the celebrated London case which took place under the jurisdiction of the previous Administration. I will merely say that where there is a shortfall in the requirement of the ratio of space to people the local authority is under an obligation to meet that requirement. And if it has surplus school playing fields available to it, that is a means by which it can do it. It should not be done by central Government.