§ Lord Clifford of ChudleighMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they agree that the deductions from the pay of an army lieutenant prisoner of war in Italy amounted to 86 per cent. before the ration allowance was credited and 74 per cent. after it was credited and why none of these deductions were refunded, as in other countries, but paid into the Treasury.
§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Viscount Trenchard)My Lords, the noble Lord was kind enough to send me his calculations but I fear we cannot agree his figures. An army lieutenant prisoner of war in Italian hands in 1942 and 1943 would have been liable to a deduction of not more than 44 per cent. of his gross pay after crediting the special allowance. During 1941, before the special allowance was increased, the deduction from his gross pay would have been 54 per cent. Refunds were made after release in accordance with the policy of refunding monies which had not been paid by the Italians. The only record of credits to the Treasury refers to the transfer of the residue of an RAF Suspense Account after the bulk of the account had been dispersed in accordance with policy.
§ Lord Clifford of ChudleighMy Lords, while thanking the noble Viscount for that reply, may I ask him three supplementaries? First, will he accept and publish the signed affidavits of officers who have kept detailed accounts of what happened? Secondly, will he accept that those of us "old lags" who remain are a fairly sceptical lot and the only reason why we are carrying on this fight for retrospective justice is that we were so incensed by the working group report, with its inaccuracies and nasty innuendos? Lastly, has the noble Viscount's attention been drawn to the statement made by the Ombudsman, Sir Cecil Clothier?
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, I will certainly look at any evidence that any individual officer ex-prisoner wishes to submit to us. We have done so in a great number of cases; but such are feelings on this subject that I feel it is only right and proper that officers who suffered captivity should have any opportunity that they can to develop their individual feelings and figures. I quite accept that the "old lags", as the noble Lord calls himself, are a sceptical lot, and I also 536 accept that they are highly incensed. I believe that the working party report was more a problem of language than indeed of accuracy in main essentials as to policy. So far as the Ombudsman is concerned, he has not investigated this case because it is outside his terms of reference, and in advance of any investigation I do not think anyone can express an opinion.
§ Lord MayhewMy Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount whether it is not a fact that substantial injustice was done to a large number of ex-officers and, instead of allowing this unhappy matter to drift on, should not the Government make perhaps a modest ex gratia payment to the benevolent funds of the three Services in order to help ex-prisoners in need?
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, I have noted that the noble Earl's unofficial committee—I do not think he is here today—have moved their emphasis from the carrying out of policy to the question of policy and to the question of whether the benevolent funds could be augmented. I have asked the noble Earl, with most of the noble Lords in this House who have expressed an interest in this matter, to come and look at the question of the policy, which we now seem to be talking about, next week at the Ministry of Defence. I should like to be guided by that meeting and by their views after that meeting.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether, in the course of his investigations into this affair, he has discovered any act or any omission which in his judgment constitutes maladministration on the part of the Government at any time? If so, is it such an act as in his judgment warrants the setting up of any inquiry?
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that supplementary question. The answer is that neither I nor two other Ministers who have looked at this, nor my officials, have had any case made out and substantiated to demonstrate that the policy which I have described very often in this House was not carried out. Therefore, the answer is that no cases have been made out, and indeed one member of the noble Earl's committee, Captain Bracken, who put forward what he made clear was an illustrative claim, has agreed with my officials that that claim cannot be substantiated. So at this time no evidence of maladministration is available. It now remains to discuss the question of policy of those long years ago.
§ Lord Elwyn-JonesMy Lords, was there not an earlier reference to the Ombudsman—though not in relation to this specific matter—of a complaint by a number of officers and men, I think, in the Royal Air Force who were held in a concentration camp? It was found in that case that there had been maladministration, and compensation was duly paid.
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, I am not aware of the particular case to which the noble and learned Lord refers, but I will certainly research it. However, in this case I can assure him that no evidence has been established in any individual case which shows that the policy was not carried out. I should like to make 537 clear that at this distance in time it is impossible to prove that in every individual case an officer who did not fill in a claim form for refund according to the policy did not get his due. It is impossible for me or anyone else to prove that there were not cases of people who did not claim and did not get their due.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, may I help the Minister by pointing out—
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that the campaign referred to by my noble and learned friend Lord Elwyn-Jones, on the question of the RAF officers who were in a concentration camp, was initiated by the late Mr. Airey Neave, and that I had the great privilege of assisting him in it? I am sure that, with the knowledge which the noble Viscount would gain in the archives of the Foreign Office or the Treasury, he might be able to get to the facts of the case to help him in his endeavour.