HL Deb 21 April 1982 vol 429 cc613-6

7.54 p.m.

The Earl of Kinnoull

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Kinnoull.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The Lord Murton of Lindisfarne in the Chair.]

Clause 1 [Repeal of S.15 of 1949 c.67]:

The Earl of Kinnoull moved Amendment No. 1:

Page 1, line 10, leave out subsection (2) and insert—

("(2) In consequence of subsection (1) the following enactments are hereby repealed, namely—

  1. (a) in Schedule 16 to the Employment Protection Act 1975. paragraph 5 of Part IV; and
    2. 614
  2. (b) in part I of Schedule 3 to the Civil Aviation Act 1980. the words "Section 15" in the entry relating to the Civil Aviation Act 1949 and the whole of the entry relating to the Employment Protection Act 1975.")

The noble Earl said: This amendment is a purely drafting amendment. As the Bill stands, it is incomplete as to including repeals to existing legislation which are consequential to the Bill. I am grateful for the guidance given on this matter by my noble friend's department, and I apologise to the Committee for the initial discrepancy in the drafting of the Bill. With that short explanation, I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 [Short title]:

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede moved Amendment No. 2:

Page 1, line 14, end insert— ("(2) This Act shall come into force on the appointed day. (3) In this section "the appointed day" has the meaning given by section 10 of the Civil Aviation Act 1980.")

The noble Lord said: In the Second Reading debate I indicated to your Lordships that I thought it was inappropriate for the Government to lend their support to the noble Earl's Bill. I do not at this hour wish to go over the speech that I made on that occasion. That speech was concerned with why the trade union movement did not wish to see Section 15 repealed.

Your Lordships will have noticed that there is no indication in the noble Earl's Bill as to when it should come into force. As noble Lords will know, the repeal of Section 15 of the Civil Aviation Act will automatically come into force on the appointed day defined by the Civil Aviation Act 1980. I would suggest to the Government that the proper thing for them to do would be either to lend their support to my amendment or to withdraw their support from the Bill. I say this because I think that the good standing of Government is involved here, and it demands that they, in fact, should follow that course of action.

Since the Second Reading debate I have managed to obtain a copy of the TUC report of the meeting held on Tuesday, 3rd November, at 3 p.m. at the Department of Trade, to which I referred on that occasion. This report records a number of matters referring to the civil aviation industry. Item 16 of that report, headed "Terms and Conditions", reads: The TUC argued against the repeal of Section 15. It was particularly useful in ensuring that foreign airlines, such as Middle Eastern airlines, operating in Britain provided reasonable terms and conditions. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary said that he would look into that interesting point, but also noted that Section 15 would not in fact be repealed until BA was privatised". The clear understanding of the TUC from that was that Section 15 would not be repealed until British Airways was privatised. In the circumstances, I feel that the Government can do no less than support this amendment. I beg to move.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Trefgarne)

I am afraid that the members of the TUC who attended the meeting to which the noble Lord has referred came away from that meeting with a mistaken impression as to what was in the minds of my right honourable and honourable friends whom they saw on that occasion. As I understand it—and I was not present at that meeting, but I have made further inquiries as to what took place—my right honourable friend the then Secretary of State for Trade said that the Government had no plans to repeal Section 15 ahead of the provision already provided in the 1980 Act. That was and, indeed, remains the case.

But, of course, that does not prevent the Government from supporting a Private Member's Bill which seeks to achieve that purpose. The fact of the matter is that in principle we support the idea of the repeal of Section 15, and we certainly see no reason in the present circumstances why a Bill, such as the one proposed by my noble friend, should not be brought forward in your Lordships' House and maybe passed through the other place.

I wish to dispel any suggestion that my right honourable or honourable friends gave an undertaking that the Government would not support Private Members' legislation to this effect. Certainly they said, quite properly, that the Government themselves had no plans to hasten the repeal of Section 15, but they did not give the undertaking in the terms that have been suggested.

The Earl of Kinnoull

I am grateful for my noble friend's confirmation of a confirmation he gave on Second Reading. I hope that that convinces the Committee anyway that the point that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, has raised should not be accepted. I am sorry this misunderstanding has arisen. As to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, made on timing, I deemed this amendment, as I saw it, to be a wrecking amendment. I advise the noble Lord that this repeal would take place on Royal Assent. I think I am correct, but, if I am incorrect in that, I shall write to the noble Lord.

This is a wrecking amendment. We discussed at length the principle of the Bill. It is a simple Bill. I do not intend to go through all the arguments that the noble Lord made and I attempted to make on Second Reading. It is a serious Bill. It is supported by industry, and I would advise the Committee to reject the amendment.

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

The noble Earl has referred to this amendment as a wrecking amendment. Of course if the Bill was passed into law as it now stands, there is in fact no date set in the Bill for the Bill to come into operation.

Lord Trefgarne

I hope I can dispel the noble Lord's fears. I am advised that the Bill comes into force on Royal Assent. Therefore, if the Bill is passed as presently drafted, Section 15 of the 1949 Act would indeed be repealed when this Bill receives Royal Assent, if it does.

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

I thank the noble Lord for that advice. However, I must say that I consider the Government's attitude on this particular Bill devious. The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, has said that it is all right for the Government to support this Bill as it is a Private Member's Bill, although if this had been a Government Bill it would not be all right because they have already committed themselves that Section 15 will be repealed on the day nominated in the Civil Aviation Act 1980. I must say that I find that not a good principle of government. I should like to test the feeling of the Committee on this amendment.

8.3 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 2) shall he agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 4; Not-Contents, 19.

DIVISION NO. 1
CONTENTS
Bishopston, L. [Teller.] Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]
Evans of Claughton, L.
Winstanley, L.
NOT-CONTENTS
Baker, L. Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Bellwin, L. Loudoun, C.
Boardman, L. Lyell, L.
Cathcart, E. Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Crathorne, L. Napier and Ettrick, L.
Denham, L. Sandys, L.
Drumalbyn, L. Skelmersdale, L.
Faithfull, B. Trefgarne, L.
Glenarthur, L. [Teller.] Young, B.
Kinnoull, E. [Teller.]

8.11 p.m.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

As it appears that fewer than 30 Lords have voted, in accordance with Standing Order No. 54 I declare the Question not decided; and, pursuant to the Standing Order, the House will now resume.

House resumed.