HL Deb 20 October 1981 vol 424 cc689-90
Lord Brockway

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will reconsider the use of plastic bullets by the security forces in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (The Earl of Gowrie)

My Lords, in answer to a Question yesterday, my noble friend Lord Belstead set out the guidelines which will govern any future use of baton rounds in Great Britain. In Northern Ireland, baton rounds have been available to the security forces since 1969. In circumstances where there is risk of loss of life or of widespread destruction of property, the chief constable and the general officer commanding consider that baton rounds are the most effective means of controlling riots consistent with the principle of minimum force. The Government agree with that view. I hope the decline in rioting following the end of the hunger strike will continue, thereby reducing the need for such forms of control.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it is the case that the plastic bullet was introduced because the rubber bullet was thought to be too lethal? But is it not the case that the plastic bullet, has in fact, proved to be more lethal than the rubber bullet? Has he seen the published figures of one person killed from 18,000 rubber bullets fired, and one person killed from 5,000 plastic bullets fired? Does that not show that the plastic bullet is three times more deadly than the previous rubber bullet?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, the plastic baton round was introduced because it was considered to be more effective in crowd control than the rubber bullet. I took the precaution before this Question of going to the forensic laboratory in Belfast to examine plastic bullets. It is a very unpleasant weapon, indeed. It has been effective in reducing violence, and I very much hope that the need for its use will continue to be curtailed.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, may I ask the Minister to confirm that the guidelines to which he referred were drawn up by a Home Office working party, on which I understand there were no members of local authority police committees, and has that led to protests from local authorities?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, that is not the case in Northern Ireland. I will look into the position in respect of Great Britain and let the noble Lord know.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, is not the trouble with plastic bullets, first, that they are very inaccurate and, secondly, that they lack stopping power? In the old days, a riot squad used to have a marksman. The officer's job was to spot the ringleader and point him out, and then the marksman shot him when there was nobody behind him who was likely to get hurt. That was highly effective and it meant that the ringleader soon learned what was happening and started trying to lead from behind, which was very ineffective. So often, by using what is apparently a rougher method, there is much less injury.

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, other times other customs. I have to say that I believe that very few security forces in the world could have dealt with disorder on the scale that we have seen in Northern Ireland in the last 10 years with so little loss of life.

Noble Lords: Hear, hear!

Lord Paget of Northampton

But, my Lords, after 10 years it is still going on.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, can my noble friend say why there is not much greater use being made of the water cannon?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, water cannon are available to the Royal Ulster Constabulary and they are used on occasion. But, as I said in my original Answer, this is the most effective form of crowd control.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, does the Minister appreciate that my Question refers not only to Northern Ireland, but to the use of plastic bullets in Great Britain? Incidentally, may I congratulate him on what he has been doing in Northern Ireland. But the main question is: Does not the use of this weapon and other lethal weapons by the police—in the words of the Home Office working party—indicate a significant departure from the traditional police image destroying its civilian unarmed state?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, for his kind remarks. I am, of course, aware that he addressed the Question to issues concerning Great Britain as well as Northern Ireland. But, as I pointed out in my original Answer, my noble friend Lord Belstead has just dealt with this in a Question. The guidance given to the security forces in Northern Ireland is basically the same as that given to police in Great Britain. Everyone regrets that the police should have to use any weapons on any occasion. My own judgment, for what it is worth, is that the presence and the knowledge about this weapon has reduced the need for the police to use other kinds of arms which could be more lethal.

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