§ 3.10 p.m.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their estimate of the numbers of overseas persons temporarily employed this summer in United Kingdom hotels and restaurants, and why so few British young people seek training and employment in these service industries.
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, no statistics are available on the number of overseas persons who were temporarily employed this summer in United Kingdom hotels and restaurants; but I am sure that the House will be glad to know that the Hotel and Catering Industry Training Board Manpower Information Survey indicates that only 10 per cent. of those employed in the industry are non-British. Furthermore, 95 per cent. of trainees and 95 per cent. of young persons aged between 16 and 19 employed in the industry are British.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that certainly one's personal experience suggests that more than 10 per cent. of the people in our hotels are of foreign extraction? I picked up a young Scandinavian on the road during the Recess—
§ Lord Orr-EwingA man, my Lords! He told me that he was working as a waiter at one of our big London hotels, learning English. He said: "I find it very difficult to make any progress in learning English because there is only one Englishman serving on the staff in my particular hotel". Does this not suggest—and my own observations endorse this—that very 435 large numbers of foreign people are learning English in our hotels? Is this not unfortunate since jobs are important? If noble Lords go to France or America they will find the majority of employees working in hotels in both those countries are nationals of that country. Is this not an area where we ought to encourage Englishmen to take up careers? The service industries are those industries which show the greatest expansion of jobs in any sector of operations in this country.
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, while expressing some jealousy for my noble friend as to whom he picked up on the motorway—I think I heard him say it was a young male Scandinavian, but possibly I did not hear that first time—I am happy to inform him that there are no statutory powers which would compel employers, especially in this sector, to disclose any information on the ethnic origin of their employees.
§ Baroness SeearMy Lords, do not the figures that we have had and the Question raised by the noble Lord suggest that the percentage of people being trained in that industry is grossly inadequate? This may account for the fact that there are so few of our own youngsters going into it. Further, would not the noble Lord agree that that probably being the case there is a very strong case indeed for maintaining the training board in that essential industry?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, the noble Baroness will be interested to know that at present over 800,000 persons are employed in the hotel and restaurant sector in the United Kingdom. There are over 220,000 young persons between 16 and 19 years of age, 95 per cent. of whom are British; and 95 per cent. of the approximate number of 107,000 young persons being trained are British. But much of what the noble Baroness has said is absolutely true. The local education authority careers officers are responsible for giving careers advice and vocational guidance to young people. They are aware of the opportunities available in this sector and I am sure they will be aware of the problem if they read what the noble Baroness has had to say.
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, should not the Department of Employment reconsider the present policy with regard to the grant of employment permits to foreign people?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, if my noble friend would like to put down a specific Question, possibly we could look into the matter on that basis.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that the events that took place in the summer not a mile from this House were very distressing and, as a consequence, the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Renton, are very important? The figure that the noble Lord gave of 10 per cent., I believe, must be challenged. It may be an official figure but it is certainly not a truthful figure. What is happening in this particular industry is a grave form of exploitation. The trade unions are trying to erase it—
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, may I therefore ask: would he not consider giving a directive to the Wages Inspectorate on the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, and the submission I make, about some of the existing cheating and irresponsibility—which is a shame because there are very many good employers in the catering industry who have to endure the bad name of those who exploit and behave in a mischievous way?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I did mention before, and I reiterate, that there are no powers at the moment which would compel employers in this sector to disclose the kind of information which would help the noble Lord and possibly the House. I am afraid I am a little in the dark as to the particular events to which the noble Lord referred. I hope he is not thinking of the Royal Wedding.
§ Lord MoyneMy Lords, while accepting the concern which has been expressed on this subject, would the noble Lord not agree that there is a very useful to-and-fro traffic in young students learning languages?—with British students working in hotels abroad and foreign students working in hotels here. Is that not a useful thing in itself?
§ Lord LyellMy Lords, I am very grateful for the comment of my noble friend. Of course, nationals of member states of the European Community are free to travel wherever they wish within the Community, so there is complete freedom of movement there. As far as foreign nationals who do not have this right to come and work in the United Kingdom are concerned, there are fairly strict rules which are very carefully adhered to. These protect employment within this particular sector, but we do bear in mind what my noble friend has said.