§ 3.1 p.m.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government when the reforms introduced in the prison system in Northern Ireland are to be extended to England, Wales and Scotland.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Belstead)My Lords, we have no plans at present for introducing in England and Wales or in Scotland the changes recently made in the prison system in Northern Ireland.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, without wishing to repeat matters that were raised in last night's debate (from which I regret I was absent), may I ask the Minister this question? Is he aware of the very serious disturbance in our prisons not only among the prisoners but among prison officers because of the intolerable conditions which are now there? May I ask the noble Lord this in particular: in view of the overcrowding of the prisons, could there not be an amnesty for non-violent prisoners as carried out in many European countries on historical occasions? If this cannot be done at the New Year, could it not be done at the time of the birth of a child to the Princess of Wales?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, those are both interesting supplementaries but neither arises from the Question.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, may I take the opportunity of ascertaining an answer to the question I asked during the course of yesterday's proceedings—namely, what would be the reduction in the number of prisoners in England and Wales if the 50 per cent. remission which applies in Northern Ireland were extended to the mainland?
§ Lord BelsteadNo, my Lords.
§ The Earl of LongfordMy Lords, am I right in thinking that in Northern Ireland male prisoners as well as female prisoners are now allowed to wear their own clothes? Am I right in thinking that that at present is refused to all male prisoners in Britain? Will the noble Lord explain why there should be this difference?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, it is the case that, under the changes made in Northern Ireland, all convicted prisoners in Northern Ireland may now wear their own clothes. The situation in England and Wales 761 is that all unconvicted and civilian prisoners, and convicted women prisoners, can wear their own clothes, and some items of personal clothing can be worn in dispersal prisons.
I would just point out to the noble Earl that there are more unsentenced prisoners on remand in England and Wales than there are prisoners of all kinds in Northern Ireland, and of course in England and Wales all unconvicted and civilian prisoners can wear their own clothes.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the reply that he has given is a little disappointing after the earlier reply to a similar Question which I asked some months ago? The Government replied then that they would be considering the application to England, Scotland and Wales of these conditions. May I ask the noble Lord this: is there not a great danger that the precedent that these reforms in Northern Ireland were brought about by deplorable methods may encourage prisoners in this country to take similar action to gain relief from the impossible conditions which are now in our prisons?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, changes were made in Northern Ireland on four different grounds. If the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, who is always habitually fair, looks at those four different grounds he will see that there is really very little difference between England and Wales—and indeed I think Scotland—and Northern Ireland except on two counts: one is in what is called association between the H blocks in the Maze Prison in Northern Ireland, which of course is a matter entirely for Northern Ireland; and the other is a matter concerning the wearing of prisoners' own clothes.
Prison uniform is an aid to security and control in view of the very large number of prisoners and the very large number of prisons in England, Scotland and Wales against the comparatively small number of prisoners in Northern Ireland. Therefore, on grounds of security and control, the Government do not at the moment feel that it would he right to change the rules about clothing.