Europe: A Nuclear-Free Zone (Hansard, 11 November 1981)

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Trefgarne)
No, my Lords. As long as the Soviet Union has theatre nuclear weapons, such as the SS20 missile, which can reach western Europe from bases well to the East of the Urals, and a massive superiority in conventional forces, a nuclear weapon-free Europe would be profoundly destabilising. It would weaken our ability to deter aggression, and might indeed encourage it.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this view is not widely shared outside Government circles and that there is growing a consensus of view, quite apart from the question of unilateral nuclear disarmament, that a first strike war is in being and that something will have to be done to arrest the process? Therefore, is he further aware that it is for the European nations to take part in this matter, and that it ought not to be left entirely to negotiations between President Reagan and President Brezhnev?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am aware that there is a view, of which the noble Lord is a distinguished proponent, which is at variance with the Government view, but I venture to suggest that those who hold that view are mistaken.

§ Lord Mottistone
My Lords, are the Government aware that there are many noble Lords who hold a totally different view to that expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, and that in fact the majority of people in this country could be expected at this time to be opposed to his viewpoint?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, that is certainly the Government position.

§ Lord Kaldor
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the most important conclusion that emerges from his Answer is that we must as soon as possible get rid of our inferiority in conventional weapons? And are the Government taking all steps, with their allies, to ensure that the Russian superiority in conventional weapons which threatens us with annihilation because of the consequences of nuclear war, is a most urgent task to which all members of the NATO Alliance should give their consideration?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the Russian superiority in convention forces is well known. They have the advantage (do they not?) of being able to dragoon their citizens into taking part in their miltiary organisations, and of course that is not the case so far as we are concerned. As the noble Lord will well know, our posture is one of flexible response, and that is the way I think it should remain.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the area of the Baltic Sea is in fact a nuclear-free zone except for the fact that the Russians, who wish it to be so, are the only nuclear armed force in the area? They could make it a nuclear-free zone at any moment, but instead they seem to prefer to have nuclear armed submarines and also to bring them into the coastal waters of countries which have no nuclear arms.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it is of course the case that the recent incident of the Soviet submarine which entered Swedish territorial waters will be a salutary experience for the nations of that region.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, has the noble Lord noted recently two responses by Communist countries to the proposal of nuclear-free zones? Is it not the case that in the Northern European proposal the Soviet Union has agreed to an adjacent area, even if it did not include Kalo and the Baltic States; and is it not the case that in the Greek proposal for a nuclear-free zone in the Balkans two Communist countries, Romania and Bulgaria, have indicated that they would join it?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it is certainly the case that the Soviet Union hastened to embrace proposals which leave their security unimpared while ours is degraded.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, in the General Synod yesterday, made a major speech supporting the view held by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, in this area, which was received with great warmth in the General Synod and may bring encouragement to the Government?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I have not seen the speech to which the right reverend Prelate refers, but I shall hasten to obtain a copy.

§ Lord Gladwyn
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a nuclear-free zone in Europe would involve the denuclearisation of the Soviet Murmansk Baltic and Black Sea fleets?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I understand that the Soviet proposal does not go that far.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many of us who do not believe in unilateral disarmament are, nevertheless, getting extremely worried about the rapid growth of nuclear weapons in western Europe? Will the Government take this rather more seriously than they appear to be doing?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Lord refers to the rapid growth of nuclear weapons in western Europe. The fact is that the growth of nuclear weapons on the Soviet side of the Iron Curtain is even more rapid.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there are many people—some might be unilateralists and others would support the arguments submitted by the Government—who are asking one question; namely, if there should be any agreement either for a nuclear-free zone or a reduction in nuclear armaments, how would it be proved and tested and monitored that such agreements were honoured by both the Russians and the West? Ought not the Government to concentrate on this and perhaps make some statement in the not too distant future to explain to people what could happen if we should get back to the road of sanity and start curtailing nuclear weapons?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Lord has put his finger on a crucial feature of the negotiations taking place now and which will take place in the near future. That is, that anything we agree with the Soviets in this field must include a provision for adequate verification.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Government's apparently slavish addiction to the nuclear weapon is worrying a lot of people who do not share my views about nuclear disarmament? Therefore, will he say whether there are any circumstances in which the Government would decide that it was proper for them to consider getting rid of the nuclear weapon?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we will certainly agree to balanced measures of nuclear disarmament, when it can be shown that we are not thereby put at a disadvantage and that whatever we do agree can be, as I said earlier, properly verified.

§ Lord Kaldor
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the figures given recently by Mr. Brezhnev in an interview given to a German periodical are completely at variance with those given by Her Majesty's Government or relevant Ministers, and in view of that fact, would the Government be prepared to make some comments on Mr. Brezhnev's figures?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, not for the first time we have detected an element of ambiguity in figures put forward by the Soviets.