HL Deb 10 November 1981 vol 425 cc101-4

2.45 p.m.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their attitude to the Treaty on the Prohibition of the Stationing of Weapons of Any Kind in Outer Space submitted to the General Assembly of the United Nations by Mr. Gromyko for the Soviet Union, and whether discussions have taken place about the treaty with Western allies and the USA and, if so, what has been their attitude.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the Government are anxious to prevent an arms race in outer space and are examining the Soviet proposal to see whether it will contribute to that end. We are discussing the matter with our partners and allies to see what progress can be made.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, I welcome that Answer, so far as it goes. Is the Minister aware that the report to the recent meeting of the North Atlantic Assembly said that 60 per cent. of the 1,500 satellite launchers are now for military purposes? Will he confirm that the treaty of 1967 declared outer space a zone of peace but that it only prohibited nuclear and mass destructive weapons? Why should it not be extended? If the Minister will forgive me, may I ask a particular question about the shuttle? Is it the case that the Soviet Union proposed as an article to SALT II that the shuttle should not be used for military purposes and that the United States stated that it would only be used for peaceful purposes? Is it the case that plans are now made for the shuttle to provide information to bombers, to submarines, the Trident, to missile systems, the cruise, to ground vehicles—

Several noble Lords

Reading!

Lord Brockway

—and to barracks? If this is so, is it not a new reason why we should prohibit military activities in outer space?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the noble Lord rightly pointed out that the 1967 treaty extended only to weapons of so-called mass destruction, and he went on to ask why that treaty should not be extended to cover other weapons. It may be that the 1967 treaty should be extended as the noble Lord suggests, but we shall need to be sure that if it is so extended it will not unduly affect our strategic position. As to the question of the shuttle to which the noble Lord went on to refer, I have no knowledge or indication that the shuttle is intended for anything other than peaceful purposes, but it would be covered, I think, by the present proposals in the document which the Soviets have put forward.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, in order to avoid any possibility of misunderstanding, may I ask the noble Lord whether there is any constitutional or parliamentary control over outer space and whether or not it is possible for any person of any sex, provided that person has the requisite facilities, to enter outer space and not be inhibited from so doing?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, although, so far as I know, there is no inhibition upon states to enter outer space, as the noble Lord says, there is some disagreement as to precisely what is meant by the words "outer space"—that is, how far from the surface of the earth it commences. But clearly there is no difficulty over nations agreeing among themselves not to use outer space for particular purposes.

Lord Mayhew

My Lords, bearing in mind that the Government are proposing to deploy Trident missiles in the early 1990s, what assurance can the noble Lord give that the Soviet Union will not be deploying space-based laser weapons by then, or perhaps a few years later?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, if the noble Lord is referring to the recent television programme about the use of laser weapons in outer space, I would say that they represent a technology which is not yet with us. As to the question of the Trident, the Government are satisfied that the Trident system provides an excellent margin of insurance against future anti-ballistic missile developments.

The Earl of Onslow

My Lords, will my noble friend ascertain from the Swedish Government their view on the reliability of the Soviet Union in keeping its nuclear weapons out of other people's waters? And can they be trusted, if they do enter into a treaty to ban them from outer space, not to go into neutral harbours with them?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, we hardly need to consult with the Swedes to reach a view on that matter.

Lord Wynne-Jones

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the uses of the shuttle are very largely military and that indeed the funding of the shuttle has now been taken over to a very large extent by the defence budget of the United States, and a guarantee has been given by NASA that at least half the number of shuttles built will be used purely for military purposes and not for civilian purposes? Does he not therefore think that, despite the uncertainty of my noble friend Lord Shinwell as to the meaning of "outer space", it is actually pretty accurately defined and the fact that there is at the present time an agreement means that we ought to extend that agreement and make certain that outer space is not used at all for military purposes?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, when I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, that the meaning of the expression "outer space" was not precisely clear I meant of course that it is not described precisely in the 1967 treaty to which the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, referred. As to the uses of the shuttle, that is really a matter for the United States Government and I would not want to discuss the budgetary dispositions of that Government to which the noble Lord referred, but clearly the essential uses of that vehicle are peaceful.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the shuttle is designed and is intended to be a vehicle to be used for commercial purposes, that there is a very long queue of commercial users all waiting to use it, and that if the military in fact enter that queue it will not make the shuttle into a military vehicle, it will merely make for more people in the queue?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am certain that the noble Viscount has some element of truth in what he says.

Lord Mayhew

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord further why the Government are so confident that the Soviet Union cannot deploy space based laser weapons by the mid-1990s?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I never said that.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, arising from the question asked by my noble friend Lord Wynne-Jones, may I ask this: are the Government aware that in the Soviet Union control of all launches has been taken over by the armed forces and that in the United States now there is a similar proposal that all launches in outer space should pass under the management of the armed forces? Is this not an illustration of the danger of an outer space war?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the military flavour of Soviet space operations is of course well known, but that is a matter for them.

Lord Whaddon

My Lords, is the noble Lord able to confirm the reports in the evidence given to the North Atlantic Assembly that, of 11 American launches during 1980, 10 were conducted by the Department of Defense and only one by a civilian authority, and can he give any corresponding figures for earlier years?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am afraid I cannot. However, it is not necessarily the case that all the launches effected by the Department of Defense in the United States are for military purposes.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that the supplementary questions and answers on this matter show how seriously this should be one of the items to be considered by the Government in any proposals to be put before the second United Nations Special Assembly on Disarmament next year, and have the Government any plans to put such proposals forward?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I certainly agree that this is an important matter. I fancy that the best way forward, following the recent Soviet proposals, would be by means of bilateral discussions between the United States and the Soviet Union, although the United Kingdom will naturally be ready to play its part, if appropriate.