HL Deb 11 May 1981 vol 420 cc328-30

2.46 p.m.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether all national galleries and museums in the metropolitan area were closed on the holiday of 4th May last, and, if not, which were open.

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, all national museums and galleries in the metropolitan area were closed on the May Day bank holiday on 4th May last.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for that brief and not unexpected piece of information, may I ask him, out of curiosity, the reason for this? Was it the unwillingness, or perhaps the inability, of the institutions to pay the necessary overtime? Or was it the unwillingness of the employees to work on a May Day holiday, and was that under the instruction of the unions and had it anything to do with the Civil Service strike?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, to take the last point first, No. As I believe the noble Lord is well aware, it is for the authorities responsible for the museums and galleries, most of which are run by independent boards of trustees, to arrange for opening or closing on public holidays in the light of their own priorities and following previous practice. The Directors of the Trustee Museums and Galleries established a central negotiating team to act for all 10 national institutions. It was their decision on the May Day bank holiday in 1978 to proceed, after discussion with Civil Service unions, to close on the May Day bank holidays. If I may remind the noble Lord, I believe that in 1978 he was in a position of responsibility then.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

Indeed, my Lords, I was; and it is because of that that I am asking these questions. I said at that time, "This is disastrous. We must try to get it altered". I was prevented from doing so by the general election, and I wondered what steps the Government had since taken?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, at the moment we believe that we ought to leave this matter with the Directors of the Trustee Museums and Galleries in view of their established practice and their own con- tacts with the Civil Service unions. I am only sorry that this particular date has been established now for four years.

Lord Strabolgi

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that until recently it was a long tradition that all our museums in the metropolitan area were always open on bank holidays? Are they aware of the educational value? Will they try to do something to get back to the original tradition, because this means a great loss, particularly to children and young people?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, on this side of the House we could not agree more with the noble Lord. However, it was introduced, I think probably in 1978, as the May Day bank holiday, and it is the unions' bank holiday, and this is the day that they have asked that the museums be closed.

Lord Annan

My Lords, will the noble Earl confirm that the agreement which has been reached on the matter of the closure of museums and galleries was an agreement imposed upon the trustees of museums and galleries by the Department of Education and Science? For that reason the noble Earl will perhaps not be surprised to learn that I, as chairman of the National Gallery Trustees, am somewhat surprised to hear that it is in the power of the trustees to alter this matter. Does the noble Earl agree that this decision was in fact negotiated over the heads of the trustees of museums and galleries, and against their will? Is he also aware that the trustees of museums and galleries deplore the present circumstance in which it is impossible to open on public holidays, and that they look back with some nostalgia to the days when the only day on which museums and galleries were closed was Good Friday?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I agree with the sentiments of all that the noble Lord has said. I am not willing to comment on the pressure that anyone may have put on one department or another, but the Directors of the Trustee Museums and Galleries, on which of course, as the noble Lord is aware, the gallery he mentioned is represented are the ones which have negotiated these terms with the Civil Service unions.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, is the noble Earl finally saying there is nothing whatever that can be done about this situation? It has always seemed to me—I admit to having been in the hot seat originally—that while one could not do anything about it quickly or immediately, one could release the galleries to make their own arrangements with their own staffs. Is the noble Earl aware that it would then be very clear, if the staffs were prevented from doing anything, at whose behest they were so prevented?

The Earl of Avon

Again, my Lords, all I can say is that there is a set body, the Directors of Trustee Museums and Galleries, who established the central negotiating team, and it is up to them whether they want to keep to that or negotiate separately. I should say at once that it is the May Day bank holiday about which we are talking about which the unions have put on particular pressure.

Lord Annan

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the trustees are very willing indeed that the galleries and museums should be open in the evenings so that the working public could visit them on weekdays between, say, 6 and 8 p.m., but that we are unable to arrive at any satisfactory conclusion with the trade union concerned?

The Earl of Avon

My Lords, I shall certainly draw the noble Lord's remarks to the attention of my right honourable friend.