Defence Sales Organisation: Staffing (Hansard, 11 May 1981)

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

Viscount Long
My Lords, the Defence Sales Organisation is financed and staffed as part of the Ministry of Defence and is subject to the resource constraints imposed on the defence budget. This arrangement reflects the benefits which the defence programme derives from defence sales. No direct comparison can be made with programmes undertaken by the British Overseas Trade Board.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his reply. Can he say whether it is true that the Defence Sales Organisation employs nearly 400 persons, and does this figure include or exclude a further 135 employees of International Military Services Limited, a so-called commercial subsidiary of the Ministry of Defence? Are not these figures somewhat surprising when one compares them with the 15 people working in the arms control and disarmament office of the Ministry of Defence?

Viscount Long
My Lords, I have been asked by my noble Leader to give short answers to all supplementary questions, but my noble friend has asked me two or three questions. The current size of the Defence Sales Organisation is about 350, excluding International Military Services Limited. I do not believe that one can draw any conclusions from comparing this number with other areas of government, such as arms control, whose role is completely different.
On the second question, national defence is, of course, a matter that is dealt with by Governments. It is frequently the case that overseas Governments ask for a Government-to-Government arrangement to cover a sale of defence equipment, together with demonstrations of the equipment, training and support of sales. So the British Government have to take an active role. That is rarely the case with civil sales and in this respect the task of the Defence Sales Organisation is quite different from that of the British Overseas Trade Board. On my noble friend's third supplementary question, the Government hope that British industry will seek every opportunity to expand exports, but, as regards defence equipment exports, 326 the Government have a more definite role to play in what we hope will be an expanding market.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, will the noble Viscount accept that it presents a rather unfortunate image for Britain that we are cutting back our commercial sales organisation but at the same time maintaining this sales capacity in defence equipment?

Viscount Long
My Lords, the British Overseas Trade Board is only cutting down those missions that are probably not all that successful. As regards defence sales, as your Lordships will know, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister went to sell equipment in the Middle East and did so very efficiently. Although we are hoping to cut down, and are prepared to review, staff in the Defence Sales Organisation in the Ministry of Defence, we must still have an enormous number of representatives to sell abroad.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, is not this an appalling situation? When we are cutting down expenditure to end poverty in the third world, at the same time we are increasing expenditure on selling them arms, when their own money is so necessary to deal with the poverty in their countries.

Viscount Long
My Lords, I have to inform the noble Lord that without sales you cannot help other nations.

§ Lord Goronwy-Roberts
My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister will take this opportunity of confirming that the promotion of arms' sales in any country continues to be subject to a proper evaluation of the effect of such a transfer of arms on the political situation in that part of the world? One has very much in mind the situation in the Middle East, where an even-handed political approach and, therefore, of sale of arms, is essential to the continuing, if precarious, stability of that area.

Viscount Long
My Lords, I agree and, therefore, we still reserve the right of deciding to whom we sell. Apart from that, I agree with the noble Lord.

§ Lord Goronwy-Roberts
My Lords, how much, of what and to which side?

Viscount Long
My Lords, I am not very familiar with that aspect of the matter. All I know is that in the past, under Governments of either party, the Ministry has reserved the right to be very careful, politically, to whom it sells arms.