§ 2.55 p.m.
§ Lord Balfour of InchryeMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government when it is proposed to replace the present United Kingdom passport with some form of EEC passport; whether until this change takes place the Foreign Office will continue to issue United Kingdom passports for the same periods as at present; and whether this House will have an opportunity of expressing a view on this proposal.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, there is no question of adopting any form of European Community passport. Our passports remain British. We do, however, intend to adopt the European Community common format for United Kingdom passports at the same time as we adopt the International Civil Aviation Organisation's recommendations for a passport in a simplified standardised format with machine-readable capability. A considerable amount of work is needed to assess the costs and the technical problems involved, and until this has been done it is not possible for the Government to set a date for the change in the format of United Kingdom passports. Until that change takes place we will continue to issue United Kingdom passports for the same periods as at present. There will be opportunities for the new format of United Kingdom passports to be debated before any change is made.
§ Lord Balfour of InchryeMy Lords, I must say, in thanking the Minister for that reply, that at the end of it I am not quite sure whether the proposal is or is not to do away with the traditional British passport in blue with gold lettering which has been carried all over the world by tens of thousands of citizens with pride and confidence. Further on this matter, does the Minister not think it about time that the EEC bureaucrat enthusiasts for standardisation in all forms of our national life should be curbed? We have already heard about the proposals to do away with our milk deliveries; we have already heard some proposals that we should learn how to pour our beer—
§ Noble Lords: Question!
§ Lord Balfour of InchryeWe are not allowed to have summer time when we want it, and now we have the passport proposals. Surely it is time that the passion for international standardisation of the customs and habits of our nation should cease. These small, petty matters do little good but much harm for support of the larger issues of the EEC, and, believe me, the EEC needs all the support that it can get at the present time.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I can assure my noble friend that the Government's position on this matter has been that no important change like this should take place unless there is some real and identifiable benefit to be derived from it. The principal benefit, to which I referred in my main Answer, will be the machine-readable capability, which will greatly enhance the processing of passengers moving through our ports and airports. Also, a United Kingdom passport in the common format as we foresee it will retain the main characteristics of our present passport, such as the Royal coat of arms on the front and the rubric about Her Britannic Majesty's Principal Secretary of State inside the front cover. It is likely to be burgundy coloured instead of blue, and the front cover will bear the additional words, "European Community".
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, can my noble friend tell the House whether this has the unanimous approval of the Council of Ministers?
§ Lord TrefgarneNot yet, my Lords. I think the details are coming before the Council of Ministers at their next meeting.
§ Lord StrabolgiMy Lords, are the Government aware that the EEC passport control channel at Heathrow gives considerable priority to those using it? Further, can the Minister say which category of persons is allowed to have this preferential treatment?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, that is a slightly different question. Speaking from memory, I think there are more than two channels for the various passport holders going through Heathrow. There are EEC passport holders, United Kingdom passport holders and I think there is at least one other channel, and all, of course, are treated equally when they get to the desk.
§ Lord StrabolgiMy Lords, are the Government aware that the other two channels have considerable queues, while those holding EEC passports are allowed to pass through without any delay at all? Who are these people? That is all I am asking.
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, the time taken to process persons going through the immigration controls depends among other things on the purpose for which they are coming here.
§ Lord SegalMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the proposed burgundy colour is due to French influence?
§ Lord TrefgarneI should not be surprised, my Lords.
§ Lord ShepherdMy Lords, may I take it from what the noble Lord has said that there can be no agreement by Her Majesty's Government without prior approval of the two Houses? Will the noble Lord recognise that there are many who are British nationals who live within overseas territories which carry our passports, and that, if we wish to avoid a second relationship—and may I say how much we applaud the Government's decision in regard to the Nationality Act as it applies to the people of Hong Kong in particular—there should 10 be no differentiation in the passports between ourselves and those who claim British nationality?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, on the question of parliamentary approval, the position, as I understand it, is this: that formal parliamentary approval for the format of the passport that we issue is not required, but of course the Government would wish to take very carefully into consideration the views which Parliament has already expressed and will express in the future.
§ Lord Goronwy-RobertsMy Lords, while welcoming the Minister's assurance that Parliament will be consulted, will he consider putting in the Library of this House, and possibly the other place, a facsimile—he need not produce the whole passport—of what is proposed, so that we can judge the rubric and the contents, as well as the relationship of the EEC to the extra-British nationals who will be using our passport?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, a committee of your Lordships' House considered this matter a year or so ago. We had a debate in your Lordships' House on the report at about that time, and I had with me then, and showed to a number of noble Lords, a specimen of how we then thought the passport might look. There has been no substantial change in our thoughts since then. On the other hand, this matter has still to be finally decided, so I should be reluctant to put a specimen in the Library at this stage, when our thoughts are still rather fluid. However, we have made no secret of the way our thoughts are going, which includes the explanation that I gave earlier.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, when my noble friend says the matter still has to be finally decided, are we to take it that a proposal will be put before both Houses of Parliament and fully debated before the Government give their consent in the Council of Ministers?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am not, I am afraid, in a position to give that assurance. After all, this matter is, at this stage at least, a European matter. However, we shall certainly want to take the views of Parliament very carefully into account.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, as a member of the committee to which the noble Lord referred, may I ask him whether it would not seem that the fears of his noble friend Lord Balfour are perhaps exaggerated? May I ask the noble Lord whether he recalls that in the report of the Select Committee to this House, we did say:
The committee support the proposal for a uniform European passport as a modest symbol of the Community's identity provided that passports retain their national character."?May I ask the noble Lord whether he recalls that that was an all-party committee and assure him that we very much support the Answer that he has given to the House today?
§ Lord TrefgarneYes, indeed, my Lords, but I must emphasise that it is not proposed to issue a European Community passport. It is proposed that the passport will remain a national document, issued by national 11 authorities, although in a common format. It is worth noting that most other European countries are being called upon to make substantially greater changes in format than we are contemplating.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, does the noble Lord recall that he used the expression to "process" a person? Will he in the interests of the English language try to discover a different form of words to explain what he had in mind?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, what I had in mind was, of course, processing a person's application to enter the United Kingdom. If the noble Lord wishes me to use all those words on every occasion, I may unduly detain your Lordships.