The Berwyns: SSSI Notification (Hansard, 30 June 1981)

§ Lord Stanley of Alderley
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, I understand from the Nature Conservancy Council that, as is the standard practice for sites of special scientific interest, the council has taken into consideration the flora, fauna, geographical and physiographical features of the area. I understand that the main factors which characterise the Berwyns are heather moors and mires, grassland and screes, and birds. The council has also consulted farmers and landowners in the area.

§ Lord Stanley of Alderley
My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for that reply? Can my noble friend say how, in addition to the care and trouble that the NCC have taken in this matter—and, if it is designated, this area will become the largest inshore Site of Special scientific interest in England and Wales—the Government will be seen and heard by the inhabitants of the Berwyns to exercise their duty under Section 37 of the 1968 Act? That section reads: 82 It shall be the duty of every Minister to have due regard to the needs of agriculture and forestry and to the economic and social interests of rural areas".

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I am aware of the provisions of Section 37 of the 1968 Countryside Act. I think that the best way to reply to him is to say that, on behalf of the Government, I have made it my business to find out; and I understand that the Advisory Committee for Wales, who are acting on behalf of the NCC in this matter, has deferred coming to a final decision on the extent of the SSSI to allow for further discussions to take place with farmers and other interests. I understand that the Advisory Committee for Wales are anxious that all outstanding problems should be resolved by consultation. I am sure that this is the right way to proceed.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, while supporting the work of the NCC, may I ask whether the noble Lord would answer three short questions: First, what constraints would notification place upon owners, lessees or occupiers of farms in this area? Secondly, are the resources available to compensate farmers for any restrictions placed upon them and what resources does the noble Lord think will be necessary for that purpose? Thirdly, have discussions been held with interested authorities in the area; that is, local authorities or branches of the two farmers' unions in Wales?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, in answer to the first supplementary question—about the constraints which notification of designation would impose—as I understand it, notification does not necessarily prevent agricultural and forestry development schemes. There is a requirement to consult the NCC if application is made for grant aid for such schemes. The response to such consultations would be taken into account in determining any applications for grant. It is open to the NCC, as I am sure the noble Lord will know, to negotiate management agreement with an owner or occupier; and where such an agreement is reached the council are able to pay compensation. But not all improvements will jeopardise the scientific interests in the area and, in those circumstances, there will not necessarily be a need for a financial contribution. Nevertheless, the second supplementary question stands. What about the resources for management agreements? I am advised that the NCC are confident that sufficient funds will be available to meet the cost of possible management agreements in the Berwyns.
So far as discussions are concerned, I cannot answer the noble Lord as far as discussions with local authorities are concerned. Perhaps I could write to him. So far as farming interests are concerned, the noble Lord will know that the National Farmers' Union for Wales put in a paper in advance of the Welsh Grand Committee's debate in another place on rural affairs which took place on 24th June.

§ Lord Gibson-Watt
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend two questions? First, does he not consider that to schedule 53,000 acres in central Wales, mostly for the sake of a few hen harriers and merlins (which are not a threatened species) is a bit excessive? Secondly, following the supplementary question of the 83 noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, could he tell us how much money the NCC have got to compensate farmers for possible loss of property values and also for foregone improvements to their land?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the statutory duty under section 23 of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 about notifying the appropriate planning authority of the existence of an SSSI falls to the NCC. In this case, it is the Advisory Committee for Wales who are acting as their agents. So when my noble friend asks, "Is it a bit excessive that this substantial area should be considered for notification in this way?", I think I must answer in that way. My noble friend asked about the actual amount of money that there would be for supporting the possibility of management agreements. I cannot give my noble friend an answer in cash terms, but I should like to remind him that the amount of grant-in-aid to the NCC has remained more or less constant in real terms over the past three years.

§ Lord Melchett
My Lords, while welcoming the clear statement in his original Answer about the scientific interests in this important area, may I ask whether the noble Lord could say when the NCC first considered designating this area as an SSSI and, therefore, how long consultations with farmers and landowners in the area have been going on? Could he say also how much of the proposed SSSI is currently threatened by proposals for afforestation?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I apologise that I do not have the information on the first supplementary question asked by the noble Lord. So far as the second supplementary question is concerned, it is difficult to be precise about the extent of any damage or possible damage because of the very large area we are talking about. But of course it is with a view to avoiding this problem that the NCC have considered it necessary to propose to notify the Berwyns as a site of special scientific interest.

§ Lord Digby
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the NCC have declared that they are unwilling to accede to any afforestation within the boundaries of this SSSI? Is he also aware that in the area below 525 metres there are many areas suitable for small-scale planting which would not interfere with the habitats or the prey of these birds? Many of those affected are farmers with small farms who will resent this restriction.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I must admit that I was not aware of the detailed question which my noble friend Lord Digby asks me. May I go back to almost the first answer which I endeavoured to give on this Question? I know that discussions are taking place between the Advisory Committee for Wales and all the interested parties, including the farmers and other interests. I feel sure that the points which my noble friend has just put to me will be taken into account in those discussions, which are continuing.

§ Lord Melchett
My Lords, as the noble Lord does not know when negotiations and consultations started, 84 will he take it from me that conservation organisations have been extremely concerned about the length of time during which the NCC have been endeavouring to reach agreement with local farmers and landowners, without success? There is real concern that this very important area will be destroyed before the NCC even gets round to designating it as a SSSI.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, as this exchange is revealing, there is a problem of balancing different interests in these matters. The only way through a problem of this kind is for the body which are finally responsible—namely, the NCC, represented by the Advisory Committee for Wales—to go forward by way of discussion and, if possible, by agreement. That is what they are trying to do. That is the right way of proceeding.

§ Baroness Elliot of Harwood
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord regarding the discussion, which is obviously going to be highly controversial—and I read with interest the debate in the other place—who, in the end, has the authority to say to the NCC: "You cannot have this land"? Is the Minister of Agriculture the man who finally decides, or is he at the command of the NCC?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the NCC has a statutory duty, by virtue of Section 23 of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949, to notify the appropriate planning authority of the existence of a site of special scientific interest, and the Secretary of State has no power to intervene.

§ Lord Sandford
My Lords, is my noble friend on the Front Bench aware that I should like my noble friend who sits behind me to have his eyes open to the potentialities of what left us as Clause 39 of the Wildlife and Countryside Bill of 1981, which will return to us shortly as Clause 49? Could he confirm that his right honourable friend in another place, Mr. Tom King, has given an undertaking that that clause, which left us applicable to national parks, will come back applicable to SSSIs? In view of that, would he not agree that it would be as well for all parties concerned to stand back from this issue and to see whether that clause, which was designed to help resolve these issues, cannot be applied to it?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, this is a serious question which my noble friend is asking and I hope that he will not think that I am being flippant when I say that the only thing that I am absolutely sure about as the result of his question is that it would be wise for us now to stand back a little from this difficult problem and possibly proceed to the next Question.

§ Lord Monk Bretton
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend quickly whether he knows what the NCC considers to be the minimum number of merlins and hen harriers required to maintain a viable population for Wales? How many acres would be required per pair for feeding? If there are 20 pairs of merlins in the Berwyn Hills would they require 53,000 acres? Is all this the reason why yet another five sites are under consideration in Wales, near the Berwyns, for ornithology preservation?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I can give a partial answer to my noble friend, in that I am advised that the Berwyns contain some 65 per cent. of the Welsh population of hen harriers and between 10 and 20 per cent. of the merlin population. This is one example of why it is an important area from a conservation point of view. It is a matter of balancing different interests. I ought to repeat yet again that this can only satisfactorily be concluded by discussion and, I hope, finally by agreement.