HL Deb 24 June 1981 vol 421 cc1065-7

3.8 p.m.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what were the conclusions of the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development at Geneva on the use of flags of convenience and what was the attitude of the United Kingdom delegation.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the Special Session of the UNCTAD Committee on Shipping to discuss open registries was attended by a United Kingdom delegation, including advisers from the General Council of British Shipping and the National Union of Seamen. A resolution was passed calling for an international convention imposing on all states economic requirements for ship registration. These requirements might be enforced by the closure of ports to the shipping of non-complying countries. The Government are opposed to states being forced to surrender their national sovereignty in this area and by such means. Either of these steps would establish precedents dangerous to the trading opportunities of the British fleet, and hence to the jobs which depend upon them. For those reasons the great majority of western countries, including the United Kingdom, voted against the resolution.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, while regretting that decision, I should like to ask the Minister whether the United Nations' report to the conference stated that unscrupulous shipowners use flags of convenience to operate dangerous vessels and engage in maritime fraud? Is it not the case that in 1979 the number of ships of this kind that were lost at sea was three times greater than that of other ships? Is it not the case that these ships outrageously exploit third world labour and evade taxation? Will the Government do something to stop this unacceptable and inhuman practice?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the flag which happens to fly upon the stern of the ship in question is not the factor which determines the seaworthiness of that ship; nor is it a factor which determines the competence or otherwise of its crew, or indeed their determination to conduct fraud, as the noble Lord suggests. We think that the solution to the problems which the noble Lord has described is to secure the wider implementation of international agreements, and that is the course which we are following.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, because the maritime nations (as they may be called, although some of them are very limited in character) have adopted flags of convenience, British shipowners have now decided in some respects also to adopt that method, and that flags of convenience have led to a drastic reduction in safety aboard ship? The noble Lord the Minister shakes his head. I happen to know more about the subject than he does himself. If I know nothing about anything else, I know something about this. Is he aware that Greek ships, Nigerian ships in particular, and ships of many other maritime nations have adopted flags of convenience solely for the purpose of reducing wages, and also of reducing safety?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I would not accept that at all. The noble Lord says that he knows a great deal about this subject, and I am certain he does. It happens to fall directly within my responsibility within the department, so naturally I keep myself as fully informed on these matters as I can, although doubtless it will be many years before I can rival the knowledge of the noble Lord in these matters. In the meantime, perhaps I may confirm what I have said before—that the way to secure better safety standards, better social standards and better commercial standards among the shipping fleets of the world is to secure the adherence of as many nations as possible to the large number of international conventions which now exist for this purpose—notably, of course, the IMCO conventions, the ILO conventions and others. That is what we are doing, and we are not without some success.

Lord Wade

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the use of these flags of convenience has become a serious abuse and is there no prospect of some early agreement, particularly among maritime nations, to bring this abuse of flags of convenience to an early end?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, it is the abuses, as I said earlier, that we are seeking to correct. The abuses, I think, are less widespread than they used to be. But if we seek to correct the situation simply by, for example, insisting that ships of the nation in question are owned and operated only by nationals of that particular country, then we impose upon the shipping companies of the world artificial economic restraints which, in terms of British shipping, anyway, can only lead to less opportunities and less jobs for British seafarers.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, might it not nevertheless hasten the day when the flag-of-convenience states do adhere to the conventions if this country, together with other Common Market countries and perhaps the United States, were to induce companies based in their territory not to charter ships from the flag-of-convenience states?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Wade, just now, what we also want to achieve is not to impose upon our shipping companies artificial economic restraints which prevent them from operating in the most effective and economic way.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the vast extent of these dangerous practices? Is not nearly one-third of the total shipping now under flags of convenience from Liberia and Panama? And, while identities are often concealed, is it not estimated that three-quarters of them are from the United States, Japan and Hong Kong? While there is little evidence of British companies being concerned directly, they are in fact involved through trans-national companies, and will the Government look particularly at Hong Kong, which is a Crown colony?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the fact that a British shipowner chooses to register his ship in some country other than the United Kingdom does not mean that he is therefore seeking to get round the safety regulations, which I think is what is particularly worrying the noble Lord. The fact is that the two principal flag-of-convenience states, as the noble Lord calls them, Panama and Liberia, are indeed adherents to all the major safety conventions, or are about to become so, and enforce them no less rigorously than we do here in this country. It is also worth remembering, I think, that some people refer to the United Kingdom flag as a flag of convenience. At least one-third of the ships on the British register are not owned by British nationals.