HL Deb 16 June 1981 vol 421 cc527-8

2.48 p.m.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether trade unions which instruct their members to take industrial action in cases where no dispute exists between those members and their employers are covered by the legal immunities given by current trade disputes legislation.

The Minister of State, Department of Employment (The Earl of Gowrie)

My Lords, individual trade union officials (but not trade unions themselves) who instruct their members to take industrial action where no dispute exists between those members and their employer may be legally liable, if the industrial action is not in contemplation of furtherance of a trade dispute or constitutes secondary action which is unlawful under the Employment Act.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that somewhat complex reply, may I ask whether he can clarify it by indicating whether, in a case where there is no dispute between a certain section of employees and their employers, trade union officials who call out those people can be regarded as taking part in a trade dispute?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, again the complexity of the reply is because, as my noble friend will appreciate, these are rather plural areas and one dispute is not necessarily like another. But broadly, as I said, the position is that the Employment Act would withdraw legal immunity in a case of the kind that my noble friend suggests.

Baroness Gaitskell

My Lords, may I ask the Minister how often this happens? Does it happen a great deal? I have never heard about this at all. So can he give us some idea of how often this kind of action is taken?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, one of the reasons why it happens very little is the passage of the Employment Act.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the definition of a "trade dispute" includes disputes between one trade union and another, and that in those circumstances immunity arises? Will he ask the Secretary of State for Employment to consider whether there is any longer justification for immunity in such circumstances?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, as I think my noble friend will be aware, the Government have misgivings about the whole system of immunity which obtains for historical and other reasons in our system. To that end, we have issued a discussion document for consultation. The consultation period has now ended and we are considering what might result from it. But my noble friend will also be aware that the ability to withdraw one's labour is, of course, universal, endemic and, effectively, a right. It is therefore a difficult area in which to intervene with any confidence.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, are the Government aware that their upholding of the right to strike will be widely approved? Are the Government further aware that working people's solidarity is as commendable in this country as it is in Poland?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, I am glad to say that with the sad exception of the dispute between the Government and their own employees we are at present enjoying a greater calm over the industrial landscape in terms of disputes than we have for many years.