Afghanistan: Representations to the USSR (Hansard, 4 June 1981)

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister discussed Afghanistan with the Soviet Ambassador on 9th March. There have been subsequent exchanges in Moscow. The Government have made it clear that we expect the Soviet Union to withdraw their 85,000 troops from Afghanistan and leave the Afghan people free to determine their own future. No satisfactory response has been obtained.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, does the noble Lord realise—not because I asked the Question but because of the personal involvement of the Foreign Secretary—that the Foreign Secretary might have been present in order to answer the Question himself? However, can the noble Lord recall when the invasion occurred, the demonstrations of hostility against Russia, the resentment expressed, and the determination of the United Kingdom and some of the allied countries to prevent any further invasions following the incident in Czechoslovakia some time ago and now in Afghanistan? We seem to have completely surrendered. There has been no bang and hardly a whimper of protest. In spite of the peregrinations of the Foreign Secretary all over the globe, not a word is said about Afghanistan. Can we have some assurance that no other invasion is in contemplation, or is that beyond the knowledge of our intelligence department or the Foreign Secretary himself? Is it not an absolute scandal that this sort of affair can occur and almost simultaneously, or at any rate not long after the event—

Noble Lords
Too long!

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, perhaps I might finish my question, with the consent of the noble Lord the Chief Whip. I notice that he was getting up to interrupt me. I advise him not to do that; it will not do him any good. I mean what I say.

Noble Lords
Order, order

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, will give way for just half a minute I will allow him to finish his question. I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord, but I think that he is verging on disturbing the patience of the House. If he would be very kind and finish his question, my noble friend will be able to answer him.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, the noble Lord the Chief Whip is quite wrong. I am not talking about the patience of the Government or the patience of your Lordships' House. I am talking about my patience and that of many other Members of your Lordships' House because of what has occurred or what has happened since. Can we have some assurance that it is within our knowledge that it is contemplated by the Soviet Union to indulge in further invasions, and if so, what do we propose to do about it?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot answer for the Government of the Soviet Union and I cannot say what further incursions upon the liberty of individual nations they have in mind. I hope that they have none in mind. As regards Afghanistan, we remain deeply concerned about the invasion of that country and the continued occupation by the 85,000 Russian troops to which I have referred.

§ Lord Goronwy-Roberts
My Lords, while entirely in accord with the purport of the Question of my noble friend Lord Shinwell and, if I may say so, gratified to understand that the démarche to the Soviet Ambassador on 9th March has been followed up at diplomatic level in Moscow since, may I press the Minister to assure the House that any further incursions, which may or may not be considered by the Soviet Union or any other country, will be regarded by the rest of us—and that means not only this country but also the Community and, indeed, the United Nations—with the utmost disapproval, leading possibly to action to mark that disapproval? In particular, will the noble Lord give an indication that above all the integrity of Poland will continue to be respected physically by the Soviet Union?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, my noble friend the Foreign Secretary has made clear on several occasions the consequences that would flow from a Soviet incursion into Poland. I reiterate and reconfirm everything that my noble friend and, indeed, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister have said on that account.

§ Lord Gladwyn
My Lords, if the Prime Minister receives no satisfactory response from the Russians in respect of the representations that she made last March, are we to assume that our relations, both political and commercial, with the Soviet Union will then be the same as they were before the invasion of Afghanistan?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I fear that, following their invasion of Afghanistan, and in the absence of any satisfactory settlement of that matter, our relations with the Soviet Union can never be the same as they were before this monstrous act of aggression. We shall 1347 be considering what further diplomatic moves we can make.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, have the Government noted the condemnation of the Soviet action by the non-aligned nations of the world? Will the Government give the utmost support to the efforts which the non-aligned nations are now making to bring about a solution to this problem by a conference between Afghanistan and the neighbouring states?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we have certainly noticed the condemnation that has been issued on this matter by the non-aligned nations and, indeed, almost every civilised nation of the world. As for a conference, that could indeed play a useful role at the right time.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, perhaps I might ask a question that I was about to put when I was interrupted by the noble Lord the Chief Whip. I apologise to the noble Lord the Chief Whip, for I meant no offence when I refused to sit down. We are very good friends and would remain so despite our political views. In view of what has occurred and the intransigent position of the Soviet Union over this affair, do the Government contemplate any discussions with the Soviet Union on the control of arms or any matter of that sort?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, certainly from time to time—indeed, regularly—we have discussions with the Soviet Union in various fora about arms control and disarmament matters. However, since Afghanistan those discussions have had to proceed in the light of what has happened in that unhappy country and in the sure knowledge that any proposals that are made in respect of arms control or disarmament have, as I have said before in other contexts, to be verifiable and effective.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether there is evidence that the West is still offering cheap interest loans to the Soviet Union? Can he assure the House that at least this country will not be associated with such things?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I cannot of course answer for other Governments, but I can say that the concessional credit arrangements that were formerly available to the Soviet Union have now been terminated.

§ Lord Gore-Booth
My Lords, in the matter of making our representations to the Soviet Union, which I hope we do in an extremely definite manner, may I ask whether we are using the language to the Soviet Union which would make it extremely clear to them and also, I hope, to our own public, that in behaving in this way they are completely destroying the credibility of anything which they may eventually say in the cause of peace? In other words, they are destroying their own position of being people who are credible in bringing about peace.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, of course the noble Lord had a long and distinguished career in the 1348 Diplomatic Service and will know better than I the ways of expressing diplomatic displeasure to those with whom one disagrees. I can assure him that we have certainly gone to the limits of diplomatic propriety in this matter.