Employment (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1981

HL Deb 03 June 1981 vol 420 cc1305-12

9.8 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Elton)

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Employment (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1981, which was laid before this House on 12th May 1981, be approved.

This draft order deals with various matters within the field of employment in Northern Ireland. The main provisions are contained in Parts II and III. Part II deals with the control, through licensing, of private employment agencies and employment businesses in Northern Ireland. Part III repeals the Safeguarding of Employment Act (Northern Ireland) 1947 and it also makes provision for the abolition of three statutory bodies—the Central Advisory Council for the Employment of the Disabled, the Northern Ireland Training Council and the Youth Careers Guidance Committee, and in addition contains an Article to raise the limit of the borrowing power of the Northern Ireland Redundancy Fund.

The effect of Part II of this order is to bring the law ill Northern Ireland broadly into line with that in Great Britain. It contains provisions similar to those which the Employment Agencies Act 1973 applied to employment agencies and employment businesses in Great Britain. This Act received a general welcome from all sides of the House but it did not cover Northern Ireland.

While the provisions of the order are broadly similar to those of the Act they differ from it in one important particular—they do not provide rights of entry for the purpose of the inspection of premises, records or documents. Article 6 provides for the making of regulations as to the keeping of records, the furnishing of information to the Department of Manpower Services and other matters. Rights of entry have been carefully considered but the Government are reluctant to see any extension of powers of this sort, and it is felt that adequate control can be exercised through the licensing procedure.

The Employment Agencies Act was welcomed at its introduction as a means of controlling a number of abuses. In Northern Ireland, however, employment agencies have not been a problem and there has been no urgency in seeking to control or regulate their operations. However, representations were made by Equity, which expressed concern about exploitation of artists obtaining work through Northern Ireland agencies and it was decided to bring forward legislation similar to the Employment Agencies Act. Since this decision the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions passed at their recent conference a resolution seeking an extension to Northern Ireland of the provisions of the Great Britain Act.

The order does not seek to curb the activities of respectable and responsible agencies. It does seek to ensure that firms active in this sphere do not fall below the standards which the public, including employees and employers, are entitled to expect. It provides, in Article 4, for: the licensing of employment agencies and employment businesses; and for the refusal and revocation of licences on the grounds of the applicant's age or misconduct or the misconduct of the agency's business or the unsuitability of the premises. It provides in Article 5 for representations against such refusals or revocations: in Article 6 for the making of regulations to secure the proper conduct of employment agencies; in Article 7 for the restriction of charges on persons seeking employment; in Article 8 for the display of licences; for appropriate enforcement provisions; and in Article 11 for the exemption of certain types of agency from the provisions of the order; for example, those for nurses or for seamen or provided by certain educational establishments.

Part III of the order deals with miscellaneous matters relating to employment and training in Northern Ireland. Article 12 repeals the Safeguarding of Employment Act (Northern Ireland) 1947. I should explain to your Lordships that this was a measure designed to protect the jobs of Northern Ireland workers from being taken up by nationals of other countries. When the United Kingdom acceded to the Treaty of Rome in 1973 it was granted a period of derogation from the requirements of the treaty regarding the free movement of labour throughout the European Community. The United Kingdom Government undertook not to extend this period beyond 31st December 1977. From 1st January 1978 therefore the 1947 Act ceased to have effect.

Workers from European Community countries are now free to take up employment in Northern Ireland, although of course nationals from countries outside the European Community are still subject, as they are in other parts of the United Kingdom, to the more stringent requirements of the Immigration Act 1971 and therefore need work permits before taking up jobs in Northern Ireland.

The purpose of Articles 13, 14 and 15 is to simplify and improve the steps by which Government carry out their consultation with appropriate bodies. These articles provide for the abolition of the Central Advisory Council for the Employment of the Disabled, which has not met since 1969, and also of the Northern Ireland Training Council and the Youth Careers Guidance Committee. In their place it is intended that a single non-statutory forum called the Manpower Advisory Council will be established. In the words of my honourable friend the Minister of State, Mr. Butler, this Council will include four representatives of the employers, places for four representatives of employed persons, three representatives of educational interests covering the higher, further and secondary sectors, two representatives of what one might call the providers of training—that is training boards and management and related services organisations—and one representative of the disabled.

It will provide the means for a thorough exchange of views between the interests represented on it, and my honourable friend, the Minister of State, I understand, intends to take the chair as frequently as possible in person. It will cover the whole range of training, careers guidance and employment, and will, I am sure, prove to be a useful addition to the information and advice available to him on these matters.

Article 16 of the order raises the limit, set by Section 45 of the Contracts of Employment and Redundancy Payments (Northern Ireland) Act 1965 (as amended), on the amount which can be borrowed by the Northern Ireland Redundancy Fund from the Consolidated Fund from £2 million to £7½ million. The increase is necessary first, to meet expected claims on the Redundancy Fund, which, as in Great Britain, have grown rapidly during the last year and are expected to continue at a high level during 1981, and, secondly, to achieve parity with the Great Britain Redundancy Fund. My Lords, those are the principal provisions of the order. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 12th May be approved.—(Lord Elton.)

9.16 p.m.

Lord Blease

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Elton, for his explanatory outline of this Employment (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order. At the outset of my remarks I should like to say that I fully accept that, in the context of many of the crucial problems and difficulties Northern Ireland is currently having to deal with, this order is not the most pressing issue. At the same time, I believe it is important that every consideration be given to the cumulative effects of legislative measures presented by orders of this miscellaneous kind on the long-term development of effective government and, indeed, the public attitude to good executive and administrative arrangements for the Province.

In my opinion, the miscellaneous provisions and measures of this order are important. The various matters deal with employment, and with one of Northern Ireland's most valuable assets—that is, the quality and effectiveness of our manpower services. From information and views I have received about the draft order, and from my own experiences, I am doubtful that the methods and extent of the procedures for consultation with all interested bodies have been adequately carried out on this occasion. Certainly some aspects of the draft order have given rise to much genuine concern about the possible effects the legislation may have on future developments of Northern Ireland manpower services.

For a number of years, the Northern Ireland manpower services have been highly regarded and commended for their adaptability and effectiveness. They have been commended in this respect by industrialists, by inward capital investors and by others who have displayed an active interest in the future of the Province. The Minister has already made mention of some of the attitudes of the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, and he will know of some aspects of the disquiet that has arisen from the proposals contained in this order. I have no doubt that much of this concern and anxiety has been mainly due to misunderstandings that could have been prevented had suitable communication and consultation been undertaken.

The Minister has outlined in some detail the six separate matters in the field of employment that the order deals with. I feel it necessary to repeat them. They are provisions that enable the Department of Manpower Services: to regulate and license Employment agencies; to repeal the Safeguarding of Employment Act, 1947; to abolish the Central Advisory Council on the Employment of the Disabled; to abolish the Northern Ireland Training Council; to abolish the Youth Careers Guidance Committee; and to increase the limit on the monies available to the Redundancy Fund. In addition to these six matters, the Minister of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Adam Butler, stated, when the order was debated in another place on 19th May, that he proposes to set up a non-statutory forum entitled the Manpower Advisory Council.

Whatever may be the merits or the wisdom or the reasons for encompassing these seven employment services matters within this one order, I do not propose to probe at any length into the particular reasons here tonight. However, I do feel obliged to invite the Minister to consider a few points arising from Part I of the order, the employment agencies, and also the Government's intention, which is not contained in the order, to set up the non-statutory Manpower Advisory Council.

The Minister will be aware of the trade unions' declared opposition to the provisions contained in this Northern Ireland order for the control through licensing of private employment agencies. It has been claimed that the order brings the law in Northern Ireland in line with that in Great Britain and I noted carefully that the Minister said "broadly in line" with that in Great Britain.

The Northern Ireland trade unions are concerned because the order does not provide for regulatory powers and control to be given to inspectors to enter employment agency premises and to inspect books which is, indeed, the law in Great Britain. By asking the Northern Ireland trade unions to accept the order without those provisions, the Government are placing the unions in an awkward situation in relation to their trade union colleagues in Great Britain and, indeed, in respect of EEC countries. I understand from inquiries that I have made today that the British TUC is already unhappy about the present law that exists in connection with fee-paying employment agencies and is demanding the abolition of all fee-paying agencies or, if not abolition, certainly rigorous regulations. So I think it understandable that the Northern Ireland trade unions should take this particular attitude to an order being introduced in Northern Ireland at this time in respect of fee-paying agencies.

I could go on to mention the 1933 and 1947 ILO conventions at which tripartite bodies—employers, government employers and trade unions—have laid down rules and conventions for the abolition of fee-paying employment agencies. However, I propose at this stage to put a few questions to the Minister. Article 4(8) deals with the issuing and revoking of licences by the department. I should like to ask the Minister whether he can explain if it is proposed that each licence is to be reviewed annually and under what circumstances licences will be granted for a five-year period. As regards Article 6(1)(h), which is concerned with, regulating the provision of services by persons carrying on such agencies and businesses in respect of persons who are under the age of eighteen years or are undergoing full-time education", I should like to ask the Minister what kind of employment services it is envisaged will be provided by fee-paying agencies for persons under 18 years of age. Will they be related to or co-ordinated with the existing Departments of Education and Manpower and other bodies that are carrying out vocational guidance and educational guidance and other such manpower employment matters? Can the Minister explain the reference to "undergoing full-time education"? Does that apply only to persons under 18 years of age, or does it apply to all persons undergoing full-time education?

I should like to refer back to page 5 and Article 6, which deals with the general regulations. There is a list of the particular ways in which the licences are controlled and to be granted. How are the regulations or orders that may be made by the department to be enforced? How many persons are to be employed as inspectors to carry out the remit that has been laid down in Article 6? Finally, dealing with the employment agencies, will an annual report on this part of the order be presented to both Houses of the United Kingdom Parliament?

In dealing with the Manpower Advisory Council, there are a number of matters which I should like to raise, but I shall confine myself to one. This is a non-statutory body. The Central Advisory Council on disablement is to be abolished, but the area committees are to be retained. These have a statutory obligation. Will these disablement committees report separately, or will the Manpower Advisory Committee, as a non-statutory body, issue an annual report? In what way will this House, the general public, or others who are interested, be acquainted with the role, the functions and the work of this particular body, or will we simply be left to the device of asking questions or probing into matters through both Houses of this Parliament?

Finally, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Elton, and indeed the Minister of State, Mr. Adam Butler, very much appreciate the difficulties of the Northern Ireland trade unions, and I know that both of them, along with the Northern Ireland Office, value highly the trade union goodwill and co-operation in many spheres of employment and manpower matters. It is certainly my personal view that Mr. Butler acted wisely in keeping available places for trade unions on the proposed Manpower Advisory Council, and I hope that the Minister will initiate new approaches to the Northern Ireland Committee about the role of this particular council.

Although there are aspects of the order with which I can concur, before I indicate approval of the order from this side of the House, I shall await the Minister's reply.

9.27 p.m.

Lord Elton

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his comments on this order and I shall try to take them in the order in which he presented them, but I may get them muddled. First, the noble Lord raised the question of the consultation which preceded the introduction of this order and was, I think, of the opinion that it had been inadequate. I can only say that the proposal to set up the Manpower Advisory Council in place of the three bodies which are abolished—and it is that decision about which he is concerned—its terms of reference and membership were explained in detail in letters from' the Department of Manpower Services in September last year to, among others, members of the Northern Ireland Training Council, the Youth Careers Guidance Committee and members of the Northern Ireland Training Executive and the nine Industrial Training Boards. There was consultation with both sides of industry on the proposal, and this was prolonged both at official and at ministerial level.

In the case of the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions who have, as the noble Lord has commented, refused to serve, I am glad that the noble Lord shares my approval of my honourable friend's decision to retain their seats empty in the hope that they will eventually decide to occupy them. I know that they have expressed the opinion that attendance at this body would simply duplicate direct representations to the Department of Manpower Services, which they already have, and would accordingly, in their view, be a waste of time.

I think that that view is mistaken and I hope that they will take up the offer that my honourable friend keeps open to them of sitting in those seats, or putting people forward to sit in those seats, and so maintain the co-operation which the noble Lord quite rightly says is highly valued by the Government.

The noble Lord was not happy that powers of entry had been denied in the enforcement of the terms of this order, when they were available for the enforcement of the Great Britain Act. I can only say that the Government have taken a view on powers of entry that these should be given only in the most necessary circumstances on the ground that the Englishman's home is his castle, and in this case the Ulsterman's home will be slighly more his castle in that we do not live as an employment agency, the noble Lord would have me remember.

The fact is that there is a public awareness of and hostility to, the considerable number of official people who can, sometimes without warning, demand or even force entry in pursuit of the enforcement of regulations which are not matters of life and death and which can be enforced by other means. On the matter of enforcement, if an agency requires a licence to operate and that licence is denied to the agency, then that is a potent way of enforcing conformity with the regulations upon which a licence depends. The enforcement in that sense will be carried out by the existing staff of this department and will not therefore result in extra charges on the public purse.

On the matter of licences it is intended at first that the licences should be issued on an annual basis, and to see how that goes. This will enable contact to be maintained with the agencies and businesses. In the light of experience, it will be decided whether the annual period could be extended to a longer period The noble Lord was interested in the point at which there would be a cut-off relating to full-time education. Article 6, paragraph 1(h), is designed to protect young people from unscrupulous agents. Clearly, full-time education can be followed at any age, but for the purposes of the order the Department of Manpower Services agrees with the line taken in the Great Britain regulations and proposes to impose a cut-off point at the age of 18.

On the matter of reporting, there will not be an annual report presented to Parliament on the work of the Manpower Advisory Council. This is a non-statutory body and will, as the title suggests, provide regular opportunities for my honourable friend and his department to receive advice, and for him and his department and interested organisations jointly to discuss matters relating to manpower training, career guidance opportunities for young people, and the operation of the employment service, including any special needs of the disabled or disadvantaged in these areas. Similarly there will not be annual reports on the granting of licences. The original 1973 Act for Great Britain provided for the licensing authorities, which were in effect the local authorities, to publish such reports. However, before the Act came into operation in 1976 licensing authority was transferred to the Department of Employment under the Employment Protection Act 1975. The requirement for annual reports was also repealed in that Act.

I think that really it would not be necessary to set up elaborate mechanisms for compulsory reporting to Parliament, adding to the burdens carried by Parliament, in years when everything is all right. When things are not all right I think Parliament can rely on the noble Lord, if nobody else, to draw the thing that has gone wrong to the attention of the House. I think that I have answered all the questions that the noble Lord asked me. I have been greatly assisted by his courtesy and forethought in forewarning me in some form or another of all of them. I trust that the House will now agree that it should give its approval to this order.

On Question, Motion agreed to.