East Timor: Indonesian Armed Forces (Hansard, 1 June 1981)

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, we have no information about military operations by Indonesia in East Timor since the middle of April. All relevant factors are taken into account in reaching decisions on defence sales, but it is not practical to seek assurances about the use to which military equipment may be put.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that it is very difficult to get information out of East Timor when the Indonesian authorities permit visits there by foreign journalists only at infrequent intervals? When they do go they are escorted to places where the Indonesian authorities permit them to see what is happening, but not necessarily to those areas where military operations are taking place.
Is the noble Lord further aware that the Australian Ministry of Foreign Affairs has admitted that extensive operations were conducted by the Indonesians at the end of March and it is possible that the troops who were then engaged in those operations have not been withdrawn? In the light of those facts, is it not essential that some assurances should be sought from the Indonesian authorities that they will not convert the Hawk aircraft which have been sold to Indonesia, and which are supposed to be for purely training purposes, into a ground attack role, which the manufacturers, British Aerospace, say is easily possible?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, such reports as we have—I agree that they are difficult to come by—suggest that conditions in East Timor are now relatively peaceful, although incidents do occur from time to time. The last one that we know about was in the middle of April last. So far as the Hawk aircraft are concerned and their suitability as ground attack weapons, the training aircraft are in fact considerably under-stressed. In order to add military hardware on to them, I understand that they would have to be substantially different aircraft, and therefore there is absolutely no likelihood of their being used for this purpose in this case.

Baroness Vickers
My Lords, in view of the fact that I have been to East Timor and I do not think the noble Lord has been there, may I ask the noble Lord whether it would not be better if he did not listen to continual rumours and that he visits the embassy, should he really want full knowledge? I personally can supply him with some quite useful information if he wishes to have it.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, would like to talk to my noble friend on this particular subject.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Indonesian Ambassador is most helpful and that he provides me with extensive information, but that does not stop me from asking for information from Her Majesty's Government at the same time? Would not the noble Lord agree that if conditions are relatively peaceful it becomes all the more mysterious that the Indonesian authorities should have added to the order which they had already placed for eight Hawk aircraft and have now taken up their option on another four?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, indeed they have taken up an option on another four. And why should they not?—because they want to use these as training aircraft.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that there are very few trustworthy Governments in the world—in fact, the number might almost amount to zero—but, although there are some Governments to which we should not be providing arms, really the noble Lord and his friends have to take the world as they find it?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, yes, of course we always take the world as we find it.