HL Deb 30 July 1981 vol 423 cc757-9

2.51 p.m.

The Marquess of Tweeddale

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the light of the recent wholesale and widespread hooliganism in British cities, they can deny that the current ban on public processions in Metropolitan London should be extended to the August Bank Holiday carnival at Notting Hill.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, an order prohibiting the holding of public processions may be made only when serious public disorder is otherwise unavoidable. In the Metropolitan Police District, this is a matter for the judgment at the time of the Commissioner of Police. Neither he nor my right honourable friend the Home Secretary wishes to sec further disorder on our streets. Equally, neither wishes people's enjoyment to be curtailed unnecessarily. I very much hope that if the Notting Hill Carnival does take place it will be a peaceful and happy event.

The Marquess of Tweeddale

My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for his Answer, may I ask, would he not agree that, following on Toxteth, Moss-Side and all the other disturbances we have had, and given the fact that the record of the Notting Hill Carnival is extremely mixed, and given the fact also that the Anti-Nazi League and the National Front both propose to participate in the carnival, widespread public disorder is virtually inevitable and that therefore a ban should be imposed?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, may I first of all say that I fully appreciate that inconvenience can be caused to people living locally when an event such as the carnival, at which there are large crowds takes place. But, having said that, really it is too soon for the Commissioner accurately to assess the prospects for this year's carnival, although I can say to the House that the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police has in hand detailed plans for the maintenance of public order.

Lord Paget of Northampton

My Lords, is not the noble Lord perhaps a little surprised to receive this Question after London has witnessed probably the largest and best attended procession that the world has ever seen, conducted with perfect peace because there was perfect co-operation between the organisers and the police? Cannot he encourage the organisers in Notting Hill to get together with the police wholeheartedly to make this another splendid show of which London can be proud?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I think the noble Lord is absolutely right. I think that the only thing that I ought to add is that habitually there have been two organising agencies for the carnival, which has always made the organisation perhaps a little more complicated than it otherwise would have been. None the less, I am sure that the organisers, whoever they are, should heed what the noble Lord has said in his question.

Baroness Macleod of Borve

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that the Answer he has given to this Question will not only please all those of us who have had the benefit of being at carnivals in the West Indies, and indeed Notting Hill, but also all the people within our islands who express their joy once a year at carnival time? I am sure that they will have enormous happiness from the Answer he has given.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I can understand why the noble Marquess asks the Question, because large gatherings of people can create difficulty for people living near, but I really think that the evidence of the last two days has shown that huge gatherings of people, provided relations between the police and the public are good, can be held in this country in a happy and secure manner.

The Marquess of Tweeddale

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to consider that the Royal Wedding and the Notting Hill carnival are two completely different things? May I also observe that people who put the two together are really living in Cloud Cuckoo-land?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I do not think any of your Lordships, or the Government, are putting the two together, but I think we can all learn from what has happened in the last 48 hours, including those who will be organising carnivals and other things for the rest of this year.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, would not the Minister agree that the carnival committee of Notting Hill has done its utmost to prevent violence on these occasions, and with great success over the last two years, in co-operation with the police? Will the Minister seek, in view of the coming occasion, to get the greatest co-operation between the police authorities and the carnival committee to prevent violence on this occasion?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, we shall certainly take into account the question of the noble Lord, and so, I know, will the organisers and the Metropolitan Police.

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