Air Traffic Control: Disruptions (Hansard, 21 July 1981)

§ The Earl of Kinnoull
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, though I naturally regret the inconvenience caused to the travelling public by the current industrial dispute, I note that the level of disruption has diminished over recent weeks. At no time has air safety been impaired as a result of the dispute. We are not contemplating alternative methods at present.

§ The Earl of Kinnoull
My Lords, is it not intolerable that such action can hold the public to ransom and put commerce in jeopardy while causing very damaging losses to British airlines, and should not such a jugular vein of the country be better protected in the future by a no-strike agreement?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it is unhappily the case that industrial disputes of this kind of course cause damage to commercial enterprises of various kinds. As for the solution that my noble friend points to, that also presents certain difficulties.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, is it not the case that this dispute has arisen out of ham-fisted industrial relations and the breaking of procedures and agreements, and that something more ought to be done? If it is possible for England to win the Third Test Match, it ought to be possible to solve this crisis.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it is not the case that this dispute was caused by the reasons that the noble Lord described. I must confess that I am not immediately aware of the connection with the Third Test Match.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm—and this arises out of what the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, said—that the air traffic controllers are not in dispute with their own employers, the Civil Aviation Authority, but have been called out by the union as part of their quarrel with the Government? 134 On that basis, can my noble friend indicate whether the trades dispute immunity covers the union in this action?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it is the case of course that the civil servants' pay arrangements are normally negotiated to include the affairs of the air traffic controllers and that is an arrangement of long standing, as my noble friend knows. There may well be some advantages in removing the air traffic controllers from the ambit of the Civil Service negotiating machinery, but of course in the long term we still have to find the money for these extra payments.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, as the Government are meeting with opposition in their effort to reduce air fares in Europe, may I ask the Minister whether they have pursued the suggestion, made in the report of the Select Committee of this House on European air fares, that we might take the initiative in trying to co-ordinate air traffic control in Europe? Does the noble Lord recall that the witness from the trade union side was of the opinion that the TUC would support any such initiative through the International Transport Federation? Finally, may I ask the noble Lord whether, if we could secure such co-ordination, it would not mean that we could cut the excessive flight distances between various points in Europe, cut the cost and therefore cut the air fares?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there are a number of difficulties about integrating the air traffic control system of Europe. There already exists of course the Euro-control organisation which goes some way along that line; but the principal difficulty in the way of a total integration of the air traffic control system arises from the very different national considerations of each of the major nations concerned—not least, for example, the necessity to integrate civil air traffic with military air traffic control arrangements. So far it has proved impossible to overcome these major difficulties.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, can the Minister go so far as to say that he will look at what we said in our report? He tells us nothing new; we set all that down. Surely it is better to try to do something than to accept that it is impossible?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the report did set out the major difficulties but did not offer a solution.

§ Lord Mowbray and Stourton
My Lords, have Her Majesty's Government ever considered the possibility of appointing the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, as an air ombudsman for Great Britain?

Noble Lords
Hear, hear!

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, doubtless if the Social Democrats ever achieve Office, the noble Baroness will occupy the position I now hold.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one question? Is he aware that certain operators are trying to get round this difficulty by flying in 135 uncontrolled airspace? Although, as he says, safety is not jeopardised at the moment, it is not a development that he should encourage.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am certainly not in favour of airlines doing anything that would lower the safety standards, but, as I said earlier, I am not aware that there has been any case of that during this present dispute.