HL Deb 16 July 1981 vol 422 cc1440-1

5Clause 17, page 9, line 8, leave out ("It") and insert ("Subject to subsection (4) below, it")

6Clause 17, page 9, line 9, leave out (",without lawful authority or excuse,")

7Clause 17, page 9, line 15, at end insert— ("(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (3) above to show—

  1. (a) that he made the implement or, as the case may be, had it in his custody or under his control, with the written consent of the Treasury; or
  2. (b) that he had lawful authority otherwise than by virtue of paragraph (a) above, or a lawful excuse, for making it or having it in his custody or under his control.").

Viscount Colville of Culross

My Lords, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 5, 6 and 7.

Your Lordships have always prided themselves on having experts in everything as Members of this House. But I had not appreciated that in the other House there was quite such an expert numismatist as one of my honourable friends there. He raised some recondite points, such as I would not have thought existed at all. These three amendments really relate to something that he raised, and I am sure that we are all very grateful to him for doing so. There are those people who make goods—tankards, coasters and that type of product—upon which they like to print an impression which looks like a coin of the realm—perhaps in the middle of the bottom of the coaster or on the side of the tankard or other such notable relics of one's holiday or possibly more valuable pieces, as the case may be.

It is all very well for those things to be produced because they in themselves could not possibly do any harm to the public since the picture on the side or the impression on the bottom of the article cannot possibly be taken to be a coin. But if you have the tools whereby you can make this impression or picture, they can be of the nature that you would be able to use them also to make a counterfeit coin. Therefore, it was thought that it ought to be clarified that people who wished to do this should be able to do so only with the consent of the Treasury. That is what the effect of these three amendments is: that people shall be allowed to produce goods of this sort. However, if they want to have the necessary equipment to make them and the impression or picture is such that it could be something which could be to the prejudice of the coinage by being used improperly to make something that looks like a counterfeit coin, then the making and use of the tools themselves should be subjected to Treasury consent. In those circumstances, the other place thought that it ought to re-write some of the provisions in Clause 17.

The three amendments concerned have the effect therefore of allowing these goods to be manufactured but retaining a certain control over the necessary equipment to do so. I hope that your Lordships will feel that that is a reasonable balance, one that will allow freedom for our manufacturers and at the same time allow sufficient control over the equipment to prevent any prejudice whatever to the coinage. Those three amendments go together.

Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said amendments.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Viscount Long

My Lords, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn until eight o'clock.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The Sitting was suspended from 7.50 to 8 p.m.]