The Queen's Flight (Hansard, 15 July 1981)

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Viscount Trenchard)
My Lords, two of the Andover aircraft currently used by the Queen's Flight entered the Royal Air Force service in September 1964, and the third in March 1965.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, does my noble friend appreciate that the anxiety that has been expressed in a number of questions in this House will certainly not be dissipated by those figures? Are these not somewhat elderly aircraft? And despite the admirable maintenance of the Queen's Flight, in view of the fact that there have been one or two somewhat disconcerting accidents to aircraft of this type and age, are not Ministers perhaps taking a very serious responsibility in not going forward with a replacement?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, these aircraft are somewhat elderly—I think that my noble friend is correct in those adjectives—but this is certainly not exceptional among extremely reliable aircraft of various kinds which we have had. The flying hours of the Queen's Flight Andovers are far fewer than the average for the Andovers used as communication aircraft in the Royal Air Force. In our view, the safety record of the aeroplane is very high, and, as my noble friend has mentioned, the maintenance is to an exceptionally high standard. Yes, the Government are confident that this is an extremely safe and reliable aircraft.

§ Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe
My Lords, would the noble Viscount forgive me if I asked him a rather practical question about these aircraft? Is he aware that since the aircraft are unable to fly very high, Privy Counsellors, when flying north as part of their duty, often are most horribly sick?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, I cannot answer that point, except to say that I have flown quite often in the aircraft without experiencing any of the difficulty that has been mentioned. I would take the opportunity to say that the question of the prestige of our Royal Family flying in the aircraft has been mentioned on previous occasions—I think by my noble friend—and I would remind the House that on long journeys abroad Her Majesty almost invariably flies in a VC 10.

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, can the noble Viscount say whether the navigation equipment is fully up-to-date?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, I think that for the purpose for which the RAF, and for that matter the Queen's Flight, aircraft are used, and for the conditions in which they are used, the instruments are more than adequate. I say again that the aircraft is extremely reliable.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, while admiring the defence that the noble Viscount the Minister makes of a quite indefensible position, may I ask him, would not the situation here be eased if the vote for the Flight were spread over departments other than the Ministry of Defence?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, the noble Lord, with his past background of experience in the manufacture of superb modern aircraft, will of course take the view that he has taken. However, I must remind him that if we are to meet the growing threat (which we shall be talking about next Monday) we really must select the necessary enormously high-cost equipment. Regrettably, this item comes lower down the priority list. So far as other departments are concerned, the whole Government policy is still to try to cut further the undue proportion of national expenditure that is represented by public expenditure. The defence budget is under great stress, but so, too, are budgets of all other departments.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, can the noble Viscount confirm that there are coming off the assembly line at Hurn at the end of the year two small VAC-475s which are not sold? If that is true, would they not be very suitable for transfer to the Queen's Flight? Secondly, is it not a fact that many of the uses to which the Queen's Flight are put would be better and more economically catered for by the HS 125s in the ministerial flight from Northolt? Therefore is there not a very strong case for combining the ministerial flight and the Queen's Flight?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, I cannot give a reply in relation to the first part of my noble friend's supplementary question. I do not think that the aircraft mentioned is of the size normally required for Queen's Flight operations; neither is the HS 125. The question of amalgamating the HS 125 Squadron with the rest of the communications squadron has attractions and has been looked at, but that would still involve considerable additional cost in moving the aircraft and in servicing different aircraft at different places; and it cannot claim priority at present.

§ The Earl of Kimberley
My Lords, will my noble friend say whether Her Majesty's Government have considered the plea by the Air League that in the interests of economy the Queen's Flight should be amalgamated with No. 32 Squadron?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, I think my last answer in relation to two other aircraft covers that proposition as well.

§ Lord Balfour of Inchrye
My Lords, may I ask the Minister this question: In terms of modern speed, are not the Andovers considered extraordinarily slow and antiquated? Is the Minister aware that there is a saying in the Royal Air Force about those who use Andovers—that strong men on bicyles can pass them on a windy day?

§ Viscount Trenchard
My Lords, my noble friend has such experience of aircraft flying slower than bicyles that I would hesitate to take him on. But I can assure him that I get to the West of Scotland to visit Coulport, for instance, I think in about an hour and a half, and have a very nice meal on the way.

§ The Lord President of the Council (Lord Soames)
My Lords, we have one more Question to go, and I think the House would wish us to move on to it.