HL Deb 06 July 1981 vol 422 cc472-81

3.45 p.m.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The Statement is as follows:

"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will report to the House on the violence which occurred on Friday, 3rd July in Southall, London, and on 4th-5th July in Toxteth, Liverpool. The violence in these two places arose in different circumstances.

"The disturbances in Southall began when a group of white skinhead youths began smashing shop windows in the Broadway. Word of this soon passed within the local community, and groups of Asian youths gathered near a public house where skinheads were listening to a pop group. The pub was attacked, and the police, in their attempts to keep the two sides apart, were assaulted with petrol bombs, bricks and other missiles.

"As the police were increasingly reinforced they brought the disorders under control. But 105 officers, 2 firemen and 3 ambulancemen were injured. Twenty-five members of the public were treated in hospital. There was damage to property, and 23 arrests were made. There were some further disturbances in Southall on Saturday, but the scale of the violence of the previous evening did not recur.

"In Toxteth in Liverpool on Friday evening, a group of police officers attempting to arrest a youth whom they believed to have stolen a motor cycle, were set upon. The following evening, when police were called to an alleged incident in the area they were again attacked, on this occasion ferociously, with bricks and other missiles. Reinforcements were called as buildings were set alight and the police were assaulted with petrol bombs. The area in which the disturbances occurred was cordoned by police, and brought under control: 75 police officers were injured, one of them seriously; 15 arrests were made.

"The worst violence of the week-end occurred last night in Toxteth, and the House will be aware of its main features. The police were faced with concerted violence by white and black youths, hurling missiles, including petrol bombs, and setting fire to, and looting, buildings. The cordons the police had formed to prevent violence spreading to other parts of the city were attacked by having stolen vehicles driven at them. The Fire Service were unable to bring their equipment into the area to control the buildings that were ablaze. The 92 occupants of an old people's home had to be evacuated. In order to prevent further violence and damage, the chief constable authorised the use of CS gas. This was effective, and the rioters were rapidly dispersed. The Merseyside Police were reinforced very quickly by officers from the Greater Manchester, Cheshire and Lancashire forces. None the less, the injuries sustained and the destruction of property were serious: 128 police officers were injured, and 47 are still detained in hospital; 53 arrests have been made.

"This week-end, particularly in Liverpool, the police were attacked with an extraordinary ferocity. Violence at such a level must be firmly met if people and property are to be protected. I wish to make it clear that chief officers of police will have my full support in taking positive action when necessary. In the circumstances of Sunday night the chief constable of Merseyside had no alternative to using CS gas. Distasteful though this was to him and to me, I believe he was totally right in that decision. In the light of the new ferocity of the violence I have decided that better protective headgear and fire-resistant clothing must be available to the police. And steps will now be taken, with police authorities, to this end. The working group, which I set up after the Brixton disorders, will carry these decisions forward.

"Throughout the week-end, I have been in close touch with the commissioner and the chief constable of Merseyside. They have both reported to me personally today. As far as the events in Southall are concerned, the commissioner will present a detailed report to me, and Southall will form a part of the study into racist attacks which is currently under way. The chief constable of Merseyside will, of course, be making the report he presents to his police authority available to me.

"Mr. Speaker, the House will wish to pay tribute to the officers of all the forces involved and to those from the emergency services who sought to carry out their duty in the face of such determined opposition. Violence of this nature cannot be tolerated in a free society. The Government are determined to see that our people are protected. For that to succeed, those to whom we entrust this task must have the full support of all our leaders, and all our people".

That, my Lords, is the Statement.

3.51 p.m.

Lord Boston of Faversham

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, for repeating that Statement, a grave one, the gravity of which is compounded whether or not the various incidents are in any way connected—and we must be careful to distinguish between them—by the fact that it is the second time in less than three months that a Statement of this kind has been necessary, and again there has been a serious breakdown in law and order. I ask the Minister to accept that we join in condemning in the strongest possible terms the criminal acts, violence, arson, looting and wanton destruction; and let it be clearly understood, whatever were the immediate or underlying causes of tension, frustration, anxiety or indeed provocation, that there can be no justification or excuse whatever for these appalling acts. Nothing at all can condone them.

We all deeply regret and share the Minister's regret that CS gas—riot gas, so-called—had to be used and it must be said that that brings a new dimension to these outbreaks of lawlessness. But in the circumstances, the decision was absolutely correct. Equally, it must be said once again, and perhaps more loudly than we have said it before, that we must not tolerate no-go areas in this country. It is the plain duty of the police to combat crime and maintain the peace, and it is essential that they be enabled to do so, and I welcome what the Minister said about the new protective measures to be introduced.

We join the Minister in commending the police and the other essential services for their courage in dealing with these incidents. We also express our sympathy for the victims of this mindless violence, and their families and those who suffered damage and other forms of disruption; and it was indeed deplorable that people, including elderly people, were actually forced to leave their homes.

Would the Minister accept that clearly there is an urgent need, arising from the various inquiries which have been carried out recently and before into the problems of the inner cities, to act on the outcome of those inquiries? There is a need to be clear, of course, about the immediate causes and the underlying causes as well, and there is a need to deal urgently with the growing and increasingly disturbing problems of the inner urban areas and the extent to which racial tensions have played a part. I would particularly ask the noble Lord whether the Government will look again to see what can be done to help especially on problems of unemployment, particularly among the young, housing and other social shortcomings.

I think it also needs to be said that, in inquiring into these matters, we need to assess clearly and fearlessly whether there were any, and if so what, shortcomings regarding the actions of the police during the incidents and in terms of their more general community relations; what warnings were given by community leaders and what action was taken about them.

I have on a previous occasion asked the Minister this question, but I ask it again because it is of particular assistance to the people concerned, and the more publicity that is given to it the better: what provision is there for compensation under the Riot (Damage) Act 1886? And so far as the Minister's reference to the inquiry into racist attacks is concerned, may I ask him to say how that is going and how soon we may expect it? Whatever longer term action must be taken to deal with these problems, the overriding and immediate concern must be to ensure that law and order is maintained and that the police have the means to do that. People in this country must be protected.

3.56 p.m.

Lord Wigoder

My Lords, the final words of the Statement indicate that the police must have the full support of all our leaders and all our people. I am sure that noble Lords in all parts of the House would agree that no amount of unemployment, social deprivation or inner city squalor could even remotely begin to justify, the sort of criminal violence we have seen in the last few days.

There are three matters on which I should be obliged if the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, would comment. First, my information from both my noble and honourable friends who were in Liverpool in recent days is that it was clear that extremists, both from the Left and Right and particularly from the Left, had come into the area from outside and were quite deliberately stirring up trouble. Has the noble Lord any information about that, and may we have an assurance that, if that is so, the people responsible will be ruthlessly rooted out and dealt with for the various offences of incitement that there is no doubt they have committed?

Secondly, may I ask the Minister to say when the working group on police equipment will report? In particular, can he say how quickly now the measures indicated in the Statement in relation to police equipment can be put into effect? Thirdly, while I have no desire for one moment to seek to suggest that the heavy burdens on the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scarman, should be increased in any way, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Government might consider asking the noble and learned Lord if it would be equally convenient to him to issue an interim report at the end of part one of his inquiry into the Brixton disorders, dealing with the policing problems of inner city areas where there are ethnic minorities, and leaving aside for the moment part two of the inquiry where he will go on to consider at some length the longer term problems?

3.59 p.m.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their reply to the Statement. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Boston, for his clear condemnation of the violence. I suggest that we must wait and study carefully the detailed accounts which will come from both the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and the chief constable of Merseyside so far as looking for the underlying causes are concerned. I am also grateful to the noble Lord for his support for the very difficult decision which was taken by the chief constable for the use of CS gas, and indeed for the general support he gave for the work of the police and the sympathy he expressed for the injured.

The noble Lord asked me whether the Government will accept the urgent need to act on the outcome of the inquiry at present taking place regarding inner cities. I think it would be helpful if, as a matter of fact, I were to reveal that during the present financial year the Liverpool Inner City partnership will receive the sum of £17.6 million, and in addition a further £17.2 million is to be available this year to the Merseyside Development Corporation. The money is to be spent on economic and environmental projects. The economic projects will include, among other things, the work of the South Liverpool Personnel Employment Agency, which is specifically designed to help those with difficulties in finding employment.

The noble Lord, Lord Boston, also asked me specifically about the payment of compensation. Claims for compensation will be dealt with under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886, which provides that, subject to certain conditions, the police authority shall pay out of the police fund compensation to any person whose house, shop or other building has been injured or destroyed, or the contents of which have been injured or destroyed or stolen by persons who riotously and tumultuously assemble together. Claims should be made within a period of 14 days. The consideration of claims in respect of the disturbances in Southall is a matter for the Receiver of the Metropolitan Police District, and in the case of Toxteth it is a matter for Merseyside County Council.

I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, for his clear statement to the effect that nothing can excuse this appalling violence. The noble Lord asked me whether there was any understanding or intelligence that extremists of any kind were involved in these incidents. I think that the investigations by the commissioner and the chief constable will address themselves to this very important question which the noble Lord has raised. I think that all I ought to say in this respect at the moment is that anyone who seeks to ferment disorder in these communities, or in any community, does a very grave disservice. I can certainly respond to what the noble Lord said to me. I feel sure that where persons are apprehended, charged and found guilty, the courts will take a severe view.

The noble Lord also asked me about the bringing into effect of my right honourable friend's decisions on police equipment. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary will seek to make available as quickly as possible helmets which will resemble the crash helmets worn by motor-cyclists, and which have protective visors and padding for the neck. With regard to the use of fire-resistant materials for uniforms, and rapid means of extinguishing fires, and equipment for immediate first aid, the introduction of the use of these will go forward with all possible speed. Those decisions are being taken ahead of the final studies that are going on in the working party on police equipment.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, asked about the inquiry of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scar-man. The second part of the noble and learned Lord's inquiry, which is to consider the problem of policing areas where the community is multiracial, will look at areas outside Brixton. The noble and learned Lord will no doubt wish to take account of the situation in Liverpool.

4.4 p.m.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, especially in the light of the heavy list which he gave of police casualties, many of us are deeply concerned about the effect of these events on the police and their morale? Can he say what steps, other than those that he has already outlined, the Government are taking to show in the most conspicuous way possible the support for the police which exists in all responsible sections of our society? Can my noble friend go a little further than he did a moment ago and say when, in particular, the fire-resistant clothing is to be issued? Is he aware that it is really horrifying to see on television pictures of petrol bombs exploding near policemen wearing ordinary police uniform? Is he also aware of the need for war-time type measures of urgency in order to get this particular clothing into issue? Finally, can he say whether, in the light of the very proper use of CS gas in Toxteth the other night, the Home Office has now altered its view against the use of water cannon?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, with regard to the Government's support for the work of the police, the most direct answer that I can give to my noble friend is to say that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary was with, and was talking to, the chief constable of Merseyside at a quite early hour this morning, and a little later he was with the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. I believe that those two senior officers were as glad to be talking to my right honourable friend about these really appalling occurrences over the week-end as he was to be talking to them. I believe they feel that my right honourable friend supports the work that they are doing. Of course my right honourable friend for his part is deeply appreciative of the difficult work that the police do.

My noble friend asked me about bringing into use fire-resistant materials for uniforms. Such materials will be brought into use with all possible speed. My noble friend also asked me about the use of water cannon. On this question I would say simply that it is most important that the Government, the police and the local authorities should try to go forward hand in hand, and these matters, too, are also being discussed at present.

Lord George-Brown

My Lords, I wish to raise two brief points—and they will be brief. One of them concerns the question of what weapons the police should use. May I ask the Minister to accept from a very large number of us that there is no regret, no hesitancy, over the use of CS gas, or water cannon, if these methods prove to be the best way of breaking up these mobs? I do not weep any tears for those who would be on the receiving end, and I ask the Minister whether he believes that that is in fact the view of most of the people of Brixton? I know Brixton, I know Southall. I do not know the"scousers"in Toxteth but I suspect that they, too, believe much the same.

My second point concerns the question of proper riot gear. The Minister says that this matter is going forward with all speed. By an accident I happen—I declare an interest—to represent a commercial organisation concerned with both the production of headgear which policemen can wear for any reasonable period of time and the invention of flame-resistant overalls (long coat and trousers) which they can put on when the time comes. Will the Minister please consider representations from me to the effect that we, private enterprise, are not receiving the encouragement that we need to proceed with this matter? Indeed, only a couple of weeks ago a senior official of the Minister's department said that it was outrageous that a company which wished to manufacture these items should offer its advice to the Governent on the kind of material that should be used. Will the Minister be willing perhaps to discuss this matter with me and with the noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, and any other Members of your Lordships' House who are particularly concerned with it?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, for the two points that he has put to me. On the first point, about what I think I would call needs must, I would not wish to add anything to what the noble Lord has said. With regard to the second point that he raised, of course on behalf of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary I would be ready to discuss with the noble Lord and any other noble Lords who might so wish, this point or any other point connected with policing. My right honourable friend appointed this working group on protective clothing and equipment for the police following the serious disorders at Brixton last April, and certainly that group is going to take account of the urgent new dimension which has been presented over the weekend. But may I repeat to the noble Lord that even before the work of that working group is finished the decisions which my right honourable friend has taken so far as helmets and flame-resistant clothing are concerned will go ahead with all possible speed.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lords, I, too, should like to have the opportunity to thank the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, for having repeated the Statement, which the Government had the courtesy to circulate to us in advance. Of course, we associate ourselves fully with all the condemnations of this appalling violence which have been expressed so far in the House, and also with the need for reviewing the whole question of protective clothing for police in these terrible situations. But there is also another, non-police point which the noble Lord, Lord Boston, touched on when he spoke of underlying causes, and when we are thinking about police measures we should also, I think, not allow ourselves to forget the underlying causes.

It was reported on the"Today"programme this morning that the figure of unemployment in Toxteth is 40 per cent., as against a city average of 16.3 per cent., which is high enough in itself; and, as the noble Lord is I am sure aware, the percentage of youth unemployment is normally higher than the unemployment figure for the population as a whole. Would the noble Lord therefore not agree that these events give particular urgency to the speedy implementation of a coherent further education and training programme for all 16-to 19-year-olds as envisaged in the Manpower Service Commission's recent publication, A New Training Initiative?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right to voice his concern, but at the same time I do not think either the noble Lord or the House would wish to leap to conclusions. The Government—concerned, as the noble Lord is, at the high level of ethnic minority unemployment—believe that the best single thing that they can do for the minorities is to control inflation and try to create real jobs, and to see that in that way unemployment will fall. Meanwhile, may I remind the noble Lord of what I ventured to say to the noble Lord, Lord Boston: that at the moment massive funds are being injected into Merseyside.

Baroness Sharples

My Lords, would my noble friend accept my grateful thanks? Having asked a Question on 1st June about the subject to which my noble friend Lord George-Brown referred, I am most grateful for the speed with which the Government are moving.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend.

Lord Pargiter

My Lords, as one who was intimately concerned with the affairs of Southall for a very long time, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware—I am sure he is—that the Asian population of Southall generally is no less law-abiding than the native population? In fact, in my experience they are every bit as law-abiding. Therefore we have to look to some extent at the causes of the present situation. There is undoubtedly—I do not know whether the Minister is aware of it—a growing feeling among the Asian population in Southall that they have got to defend themselves against fascist and skinhead attacks, and they appear to be grouping for this particular purpose. I know that the police position is extremely difficult, but the Asian population in Southall get the impression that the police are defending these fascist elements—who, after all, are imported into the district; they are not native to the district generally speaking—and I believe that this is one of the basic causes of the trouble.

Will the noble Lord ask the police to look very carefully to see whether they can find means to control these hooligan elements, which are the basic cause of the trouble—for which trouble, in the end, the Asian population are getting a good deal of the blame although they do not initiate it? What they are saying particularly at the present time is that the police do not appear to be able to defend them from attacks from skinheads and people of that kind, and therefore they have got to do it themselves. I hope that great care will be taken to see that this aspect of the matter is looked at in order that these people (who are, as I say, in the main, as law-abiding as any other citizens in Southall) may feel that they have the protection that they need from the police, so doing away with this desire to gather up into groups in order to counter-attack (which is what it really amounts to) against those elements who are imported into the town.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, the important point which the noble Lord has raised is, of course, forming a major part of the inquiry that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary set up into racialist attacks; and, of course, that inquiry includes racialist attacks which have occurred in London. But I cannot let the noble Lord's question pass without making the point, with which I think the whole House will be familiar, that it may sometimes seem as though the police are not able to prevent attacks when in fact it is the duty of the police, through the oath which they take when they take up their police duties, to discharge those duties without fear or favour. In other words, the police service is often left standing in the middle. This is what makes their job so exceptionally difficult, and I ask the noble Lord, as I know he will, to bear this in mind.

Lord Barnby

My Lords, in joining in the distress at the damage and injury that have been caused, and looking beyond the current discussions and remedies at the root of the trouble, I should like to make a suggestion to the Minister; but may I first, with the indulgence of the House, explain that I believe there is in this country very strong anxiety about the insufficiency of the reduction of the inflow of ethnic groups other than British. My Lords, for the last 30 or 40 years, perhaps, in this House I have supported those who have felt very strongly on this matter and who have had concern for what may happen as a result of too large a proportion of other ethnic groups in our country. I was brought up in the Victorian era, when the very presence of a policeman commanded respect and order and at a time when"patriotism"was a noble word and developed the most respect for Britain in the counsels of the world. That is what I wanted to say by way of preamble—

Several noble Lords: Question!

Lord Barnby

—to explain why it seems that these riots which have taken place recently do not contain people who have any respect for Britain, the police or the monarchy and what it stands for.

Several noble Lords: Question!

Lord Barnby

My Lords, it is for that reason that I now urge the Minister that he requests his right honourable friend to give consideration to the establishment of a generous fund to encourage voluntary repatriation, so lessening the pressure on the services in this country.

Lord Belstead

Of course, my Lords, most of the ethnic minority community in Liverpool come from families which have lived in that city for some generations. They are British citizens by birth, and there can be no question of their repatriation. But the more general suggestion which my noble friend makes for repatriation of members of ethnic minorities is not a part of the policy of Her Majesty's Government. Having said that, I agree with my noble friend on one of the final points that he made—that is, the necessity for all of us to support the authority of the police; because it is as"authority"that the police exist. The final words of my right honourable friend's Statement were: For that to succeed, those to whom we entrust this task must have the full support of all our leaders, and all our people".

Lord Avebury

My Lords, may I ask whether, while echoing the expressions of sympathy for the police in the appalling casualties they sustained in Southall and in Liverpool, the noble Lord does not think that sympathy ought to be expressed also for the Asian community in Southall, who were terrorised, insulted and assaulted by the influx of a very large number of skinhead thugs to appear at this pop concert? Would the noble Lord look into the question of how these events come to be arranged, since it may be that no one has deliberately attempted to foment disorder but that people who ought to have known better arranged a concert by groups such as the"4-skins", who were known to have a skinhead fascist following, in an area where their presence was likely to be provocative?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, so far as the general point that the noble Lord has made is concerned, that is part of the inquiry into racist attacks which is going on at the moment. So far as concerns the specific point that the noble Lord makes about the incident which started the trouble in Southall at the beginning of the weekend, I think we should await the report of the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.

Lord Soames

My Lords, perhaps it is time that we got back to the business of the House.