§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Lord Sefton of GarstonMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the light of their regional assistance policy, they made any representations to Tate and Lyle to ensure that any closure of a refinery should not take place in an area of high unemployment such as Merseyside; and what they intend to do following the announcement of the closure of the Liverpool refinery.
The Minister of State, Department of Employment (The Earl of Gowrie)My Lords, Tate and Lyle had a number of discussions with Government while they were considering the future of their Liverpool refinery. In the end Tate and Lyle saw no way of keeping the Liverpool refinery open without putting the future of all their refining operations and thus even more jobs at risk. I am very concerned at the loss of jobs in the area and would remind the House that the highest level of regional assistance is available in Liverpool to encourage new investment and help to provide new employment opportunities.
§ Lord Sefton of GarstonMy Lords, in thanking the Minister for his reply, may I draw his attention to the fact that it has been well known in Liverpool that the Tate and Lyle refinery on Merseyside has been under threat for about five years? According to the reply which was given to me in this House in July 1979, it does not look as though the Government have made any approaches, other than in the period immediately prior to the announcement of the closure. In view of the very harsh effects this will have on Merseyside, turning it into probably one of the most severely hit areas in the country, does the Minister not think that it is time that the question of regional policy was examined closely again? In view of the statement (in col. 364 of the Official Report) in another place, the Government's policy was that at least half of regional policy was to transfer jobs from more prosperous areas to less prosperous ones. It does not appear as though this Government have made much impact in that field. Will the Minister look at the question of the massive subsidies now paid out to London and the 555 South-East in regard to London weighting, in view of the Milner Report which indicates that it now costs three times as much to service a civil servant in London as it does in the regions, and would he be prepared—
§ Lord Sefton of GarstonWell, my Lords, I understand that Members are allowed to ask questions; these are all supplementary questions arising out of the failure of this Government to implement regional policy. Could I further ask the noble Earl whether he is satisfied with the progress made, in the Government's own words, in focussing more effectively on the remaining assisted areas following their redesignation? Will he persuade his Government colleagues to bring a further report to the House on the question of regional aid?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, I think the noble Lord has been extremely ingenious in linking the closure of a sugar refinery in Liverpool, which we all regret, to London weighting allowances for the Civil Service. They do not seem to me to have an immediate connection. On the question of regional assistance policy, obviously the Government, and successive Governments, have provided every kind of incentive for people to create employment in areas which need such special assistance; but, unfortunately, such policies cannot guarantee that all ventures will be successful in those areas—this turned out, most regrettably, to be the case with Tate and Lyle.
§ Lord Sefton of GarstonMy Lords, with the leave of the House, may I reply to the point …
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, is not this the obvious, and, to the perspicacious, clear consequence of Mr. Cube's national campaign in favour of voting Conservative?
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, if the noble Lord will look at my original Answer tomorrow, he will find that Tate and Lyle had to make decisions which affect employment in the rest of the Kingdom; and that is, of course, something that any Government, whether Conservative or Labour, also have to bear in mind.
§ Lord Sefton of GarstonMy Lords, may I ask the Minister a further question? It seems that he does not get the connection between the Tate and Lyle closure and regional policy. As I understand it—
§ Lord Sefton of GarstonMy Lords, I shall have to get used to this parliamentary language. But in any language it means the same—it means that the people on Merseyside are beginning to get a little tired of the insistence upon format et cetera in the South of England when in fact they are facing privation and hardship which no one else yet knows about. I 556 should like to ask the Minister whether he is aware of the connection between the closure of Tate and Lyle, the run-down of shipbuilding, the closure at Shotton, and all the other "necessary" things, and a regional policy that is supposed to restore the balance between the different areas of the country? If he is not aware of that, it is merely illustrative of the fact that the Government do not seem aware of it either.
The Earl of GowrieMy Lords, the great difficulty is to distinguish between regional policy designed to help people through difficult transitions and regional policy designed to equalise the balance of opportunity and employment in the country. Speaking for myself, I must say that I think the latter is never liable to be very successful.
§ Lord Sefton of GarstonMy Lords, I think we can take it that the Government have given up completely their policy on the decentralisation of the Civil Service.