Lords Sitting of 9 February 1981

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Truro.

Satellite Monitoring: French Proposal
Lord Brockway: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their attitude to the French proposal that the United Nations should have an international control system in outer space to monitor troop movements and war preparations.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade (Lord Trefgarne): My Lords, the Government view the French proposal as an interesting one. We look forward to the report of the United Nations group of experts which has been attempting to work out the details of such a scheme, including costs.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, is it not the case that the United Nations General Assembly endorsed this proposal in 1978? Is it not the case that the USA and the USSR now have their surveillance satellites reporting on each other's territory, and would it not be much better to have a United Nations surveillance, the information from which could be known internationally and might aid verification of international conventions outlawing certain weapons and facilitate further disarmament?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I do not think the United Nations could have endorsed this proposal in 1978 because it was not in fact made until 1979.
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However, the general tenor of the noble Lord's remarks, along the lines that this might be a useful proposal to agree, is worth considering, and I can tell the noble Lord that we look forward to the report of the group of experts to which I referred.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for his correction, may I ask him this further question: Might this not be a precursor to a United Nations peace-keeping force in outer space, where four-fifths of the satellites are now for military purposes and are threatening conflict?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I think the noble Lord is rushing me on a bit. I would prefer to wait for the report of the committee of experts before taking this matter the further several stages which the noble Lord suggests.
Lord Peart: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord when he is expecting the report that he has mentioned? How long will it take before we get it?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I do not have the note in front of me but I recall, I think, that the report of the group of experts is expected before the end of this year.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, is it not the case that the report is to be presented by June for consideration by the United Nations General Assembly?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, the noble Lord, as always, is very well informed in these matters, and I feel sure he is right.
Lord Orr-Ewing: My Lords, could my noble friend say whether the report will put a costing on this project, and can we be sure that all the other members of the United Nations will contribute to the cost?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, it is too early to say who will contribute to the costs of this project, but I can say that the report of the group of experts will include an estimate of the likely costs.
Viscount St. Davids: My Lords, is it not true that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, is quite wrong in saying that the majority of satellites have military purposes, and that the real truth of the matter is that the whole space around this earth is being slowly filled with small bits of satellite rubbish which now serve no purpose whatever and will some day have to be swept up?
Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, it is true, of course, that many of the satellites circling our earth are in fact spent and now serve no useful purpose. As for the noble Viscount's earlier point as to the percentage of satellites used for military or civilian purposes, again I do not have the precise figures in front of me, but I should perhaps say that many satellites—like some communications satellites, for example—in fact serve both military and civilian purposes.

Small Businesses and VAT
2.40 p.m.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, as part of their policy to aid small businesses, they will raise the VAT threshold from £25,000 to £50,000.
The Minister of State, Treasury (Lord Cockfield): My Lords, the VAT registration threshold is at present £13,500, not £25,000 as my noble friend suggests. Any change in the threshold is a matter for the Budget statement of my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which I am unable to anticipate.
Lord Gainford: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for that Answer, including his correction, and I apologise for being misinformed of the facts. Does my noble friend not agree that the easing of taxation would assist productivity in small businesses as well as in others?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for what he says. I think that the easing of taxation would be to everybody's benefit, but, so far as the VAT threshold is concerned, there was a very substantial increase last year from £10,000 to £13,500, and any further increase is a matter for my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister not agree that to have to do all the form-filling and all the other accounting that is required for VAT purposes is a very heavy burden on small employers and small businesses? Would he not also agree that it would increase productivity if the threshold was raised a lot higher? May I further ask my noble friend why small businessmen should be unpaid tax collectors? It really is a great imposition.
Lord Cockfield: My Lord, my noble friend raises a number of points. First of all, the simple fact is that when the threshold was increased substantially last year some 80 per cent. of the businesses which were entitled to be deregistered did not do so. We are of course anxious to reduce the burden of administration wherever that can be done, but the collection of tax at the source—and the collection of VAT is an example of this—has existed in the tax system of this country, and indeed of almost every other country, for a very long period of time.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, would my noble friend not agree with me that in many cases small businesses profit in terms of cash flow by being unpaid tax collectors in that they have the use of VAT money until it has to be returned?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, that is a perfectly true and valid point. Indeed, very large sums of money are provided as working capital for business through the machinery which is adopted for the collection of VAT.
Viscount St. Davids: My Lords, did the noble Lord see in the recent edition of "The Money Programme" on BBC television the sale of factory machinery, when the extremely interesting point (which was not made much of in that programme) was made that, although major firms were selling off, the firms which were doing best, and to whom machinery was selling most briskly, were the small firms? Will he not agree with me that this shows that there is a growth of small industry willing to be encouraged and able to be encouraged in this country, and that this is the best and most promising way of getting out of our present entanglements and the unemployment problem?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, there is a considerable growth potential in small businesses and we are anxious to give it every possible encouragement.
Baroness Seear: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that raising the VAT level would be a contribution to encouraging entrepreneurs in the hidden economy to come out into the open and that that would be of great assistance in a number of directions?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, the point raised by the noble Baroness is one that has been raised on a number of occasions. I very much doubt whether an increase in the registration limit would have any very significant effect on the size of the black economy.
Lord Spens: My Lords, would the Minister not agree that 90 per cent. of the revenue collected by Customs and Excise for VAT is contributed by fewer than 10 per cent. of the firms who are registered for VAT?
Lord Cockfield: My Lords, it is perfectly true that a very large proportion of the total VAT comes from a relatively small number of firms, but that has no very direct bearing on the level of the threshold.

NHS General Medical Practices in Inner London
2.45 p.m.
Lord Wells-Pestell: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many National Health Service general medical practices in Inner London have less than 1,000 patients and how many doctors in those practices are over 70 years of age.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, on 1st October 1980, there were 58 general medical practices in Inner London with less than 1,000 patients providing unrestricted general medical services. Twenty-four doctors in those practices were aged 70 or over. A further 36 practices provide restricted services, mostly to staff of hospitals or institutions. Two doctors in those restricted practices were aged 70 or over.
Lord Wells-Pestell: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for that information. Is the noble Lord aware that more doctors with small lists of patients, more doctors with very large lists of patients, more doctors of 70 years of age and more doctors working single-handed are to be found in Inner London than anywhere else in the country? Is this not largely due to the fact that lists of 1,000 patients enable a doctor to claim the basic allowances permitted under the National Health Service—which means that, having got the basic allowances for the 1,000 patients, they are then free to go and earn additional income outside the National Health Service?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, that is absolutely true. There is nothing to stop a National Health Service doctor from having private patients as well as National Health Service patients. That has always been the case and I do not think it has been suggested that it should change.
Lord Wells-Pestell: My Lords, may I ask the Minister this: Does not this mean that there must be a large number of people in Inner London who are not being properly cared for from a health point of view or not being cared for at all; or who, if they want care, have to go privately? It seems that everything points to that; and that in areas like that of this House, in Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea, 1 in 8 of doctors in general practice is over the age of 70 and 1 in 6 has fewer than 1,000 patients. Is this not quite deplorable? I should like to know whether the Government are proposing to do anything about it.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, the noble Lord is no doubt aware that the whole question of primary health care deficiencies in Inner London—and we realise that there are some—is currently being considered by a study group established by the London Health Planning Consortium under the chairmanship of Professor Donald Acheson, Professor of Clinical Epidemiology at the University of Southampton.
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The report is expected in the next few months and will be studied with interest.
Lord Segal: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the age of 70 is rather an arbitrary figure to fix for a doctor's retirement?
Several noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, like everyone else, I agree with the noble Lord.

Fast Breeder Reactors: Future Policy
2.49 p.m.
Lord Wolverton: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will announce their future policy towards fast breeder reactor power plants.
The Minister of State, Department of Employment (The Earl of Gowrie): My Lords, fast reactor policy is under review in the light of advice that the Government have received from the Atomic Energy Authority and nuclear industry. No decisions have been taken; but a statement will be made as soon as Government policy has reached the appropriate stage.
Lord Wolverton: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl for that reply. I would say, arising out of that, that we debated this subject—
Noble Lords: Question!
Lord Wolverton: My Lords, I should like to put this question to my noble friend. May I ask him this on reply? It was debated in this House last December-year and we were promised a Statement early in 1980 and we still have not had that Statement. I think that it is unsatisfactory that we are told today that it is still under consideration.
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with the frustration of my noble friend, as I am well aware of the interest throughout the House in nuclear policy. But the House and my noble friend will be aware of the complexity of this issue, the very great expense, the long lead time and the importance of getting policy absolutely right. I must ask him to bear with us a little longer.
Lord Strabolgi: My Lords, as there is likely to be a world uranium shortage early in the next century, would the Government agree that a fast breeder reactor policy is probably essential for our future energy requirements?
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, and I have debated this subject on many occasions and we have often found ourselves in agreement about it.
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, no matter what is the outcome of the considerations that the noble Lord is seeking, may I ask what steps will the Government take to prevent the fast reactor becoming an example of so many praiseworthy British initiatives which have been heavily backed with public funds only to find themselves lost in the sands of governmental penuriousness until the day when we have to pay others for the know-how whose completion we have foregone —in this case probably the French?
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, we have no intention of being—I think the word is "penurious". We have every intention of trying to get a policy of this complexity and sophistication right.
The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that, given the uranium shortage expected at the end of the century, it is urgent to get a prototype fast reactor of the commercial scale going for at least 10 years and proved to be safe so that the programme can go ahead? Therefore delays on this matter are really very worrying to those who take the matter seriously. This is not a party issue at all; our views are the same on both sides of the House.
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I accept that this is not a party issue and I also have always registered that your Lordships' House takes a longer term view of energy policy, as is only right, than perhaps other parts of our economy. I shall bring what my noble friend has had to say to the attention of my right honourable friend.
Baroness Gaitskell: My Lords, may I ask the Minister this: If we can look forward to a uranium shortage, surely we can look forward too to a uranium famine and so perhaps have a more peaceful world?
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I am not quite clear as to the point that the noble Baroness is making. If she will look at the other answers to the supplementary questions, she will see that it is a grave prospect for nuclear energy if there is a uranium shortage. That is one of the reasons why the Government are considering fast breeder reactor policy.
Viscount Hanworth: My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that our present stocks of uranium and plutonium in this country, if used in a fast reactor, exceed the energy from known reserves of coal? Secondly, would he also agree that though there may not be a uranium famine worldwide until the beginning of the next century, one always has to consider a political situation when one examines the continuing supply of any mineral?
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I think that that is one of the very interesting features of the fast breeder reactor.
Viscount Thurso: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Government's unwillingness to declare a policy regarding the future of a fast breeder reactor is already beginning to threaten the existence of the very teams who will be needed if the fast reactor is wanted?
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Will the noble Earl admit that the real reason why he is unable to give us an answer is that all of his research teams are currently engaged in examining the safety or otherwise of the pressure water reactor and therefore there is no spare capacity to do the reviews on the fast reactor? That is the real reason why he is unable to give us an answer about Government policy.
The Earl of Gowrie: My Lords, I do not accept that interpretation. As my original Answer made plain, we have received advice from the Atomic Energy Authority. We have received advice on fast breeders from the nuclear industry and this is precisely the advice that we are considering.

Dinners
Lord Denham: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if I announce that dinner will be available this evening at the usual time. It is proposed that the Committee stage of the Wildlife and Countryside Bill should be adjourned at approximately seven o'clock for approximately 40 minutes and the Second Readings of nine private Bills will be taken during this adjournment.
Industry Bill
Brought from the Commons on Friday last and printed pursuant to Standing Order No. 47; read 1a.
Disused Burial Grounds (Amendment) Bill [H.L.]
Report received.

Wildlife and Countryside Bill [H.L.]
2.57 p.m.
The Earl of Avon: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Bellwin, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Avon.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The Lord Aberdare in the Chair.]
Clause 9 [Protection of certain wild animals]:
Lord Beaumont of Whitley Lord Beaumont of Whitley moved Amendment No. 240:
Page 54, line 36, at end insert—
(" ( ) After subsection (8) there shall be inserted the following subsection—
"(9) In any proceedings for an offence under subsections (1) and (1A) any averment that an article is a restricted article shall, until the contrary be proved, be sufficient evidence of that fact.".").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is almost exactly the same as Amendment No. 243 in the name of Lord Houghton of Sowerby. May I suggest that we discuss these two amendments together. The only main difference concerns where this new clause should be inserted. I have no strong views on this. If it seems more convenient that Lord Houghton's choice be adopted, I am very content; but mine is the first amendment on the List. My amendment deals with the 1976 Act and the problems which have arisen under that Act. A lot of the difficulties have arisen in controlling the trade in endangered species because of problems associated with the correct identification of species; ensuring that the terms of reference of licences or permits are valid and with protecting those traders who deliberately avoid customs procedure entirely; the deliberate mislabelling of species to evade controls, for instance, by claiming that a certain species—which is on Appendix I and therefore banned from commercial trade—is a common species upon which there are no restrictions; forgery of documents issued by country of origin, which allows limited trade; and the smuggling of endangered species for sale to private collections. Those are common occurrences which result in a substantial commercial market being illegally supplied with endangered species and their products; skins, furs, feathers, et cetera.
There are two ways of tackling this, and the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, and myself should like to cover both of them. One is by dealing with the strengthening of the powers or the ability of Customs and Excise at the ports of entry. This is what Amendment No. 242 is about. The other way is by strengthening the powers of the police to deal with evasions once the endangered species have entered the country.
Because of these difficulties in controlling the import of restricted species or their derivatives, the 1976 Act also makes it an offence to sell these articles. This amendment seeks to resolve a difficulty over prosecuting for an offence in connection with the sale of restricted articles. At present, a prosecutor must prove, first, the lack of any licence and, secondly, that the article is restricted. However, even if this is proved, it is sufficient for the defendant to declare that so far as he is aware the article in question was either home-bred or imported before the 1976 Act came into force for the prosecution to fail, unless the prosecution can show otherwise, which is very often an impossible task.
It is doubtful whether, when the 1976 Act was passed, this was intended because where the Customs and Excise prosecute in proceedings relating to Customs and Excise, certain matters are assumed unless the defendant proves otherwise. The burden of proof is on the defence; and these matters include the fact that the article in question was imported illegally under Section 154 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979. Therefore, prosecutions for unlicensed imports under the 1976 Act do not present a problem, being brought by Customs and Excise and the burden of proof lying there. However, even if a prosecution under Section 4 of the 1976 Act relates to Customs and Excise, the assumptions referred to apply only when proceedings are brought by Customs and Excise or by a Law Officer of the Crown, such as the Attorney
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General. These prosecutions are most unusual, for the police are the body primarily responsible for the enforcement of offences to sell under Section 4 of the 1976 Act; Section 154 of the Customs and Excise Act does not apply to them. Therefore, the police do not have the same advantages that the Customs and Excise have in prosecuting suspected breaches of the law; and this is an anomalous position.
This amendment seeks to apply the assumption that the articles in question, in a case involving the illegal sale of endangered species or their derivatives, were illegally imported. A defendant could no longer just claim that an article was imported before 1976 without any corroborating evidence. He would have to show that the article was legally imported in some manner, for example, by referring to the necessary licence or to some receipt showing when or where the article was obtained, or witnesses attesting that the article was legally obtained, or witnesses attesting that he had possession of that particular article before the 1976 Act was passed.
The Endangered Species Act is Britain's primary piece of legislation for ensuring that we meet our obligations under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. Unless the commercial market for endangered species is effectively controlled, the illegal trade will continually undermine the efforts of countries of origin of these species to protect and conserve them in their natural environment. I think it is easy to underestimate the skill and ingenuity which goes into the trade in these very valuable and lucrative rare products. A very great deal of effort is expended in trying to smuggle, and therefore a great deal of vigilance has to be used in order to try to prevent this. It is essential that our legislation is as effective as possible in being able to stop that illegal trade, but while this loophole in the prosecution of selling offences exists, it cannot hope to be. Therefore, I hope that the Government will accept this amendment to Schedule 9. I beg to move.
3.5 p.m.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: Very briefly, we from this side support any attempt to give the police and the customs a better chance to detect and bring to prosecution the very disagreeable smuggling trade—in particular in birds, which I know about, and in rare animals in general. I think I need say no more than this: unless the Government can give some good reason why there is something illiberal or wrong about this, we hope that they will accept the amendment.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: I hope the Government will accept this amendment. We are dealing with people charged with the illegal sale of endangered species; they are the people to whom this amendment relates. At present, as the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, has explained, when a Law Officer or the Customs and Excise are bringing the charge they do not have to prove that the endangered species being illegally sold were also illegally imported. The presumption is in those cases that the person illegally selling was also illegally importing, and it is up to him to produce a licence if he claims that he had earlier permission to import these endangered species, or otherwise to bring some corroborative evidence if he claims that

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he was lawfully in possession of these endangered species.
However, the police, as the noble Lord explained in moving this amendment, are not put into the same position as a Law Officer or the Customs and Excise, and therefore they are at a disadvantage. I know that we do not like putting the onus of proof on a person who is charged—that is, upon a defendant—because it is a cardinal feature of our system of jurisprudence that the prosecution should prove the charges and that the defendant is not called upon to prove his innocence. Nevertheless, departures from that rule have been found necessary in dealing with particularly difficult and slippery people, and especially when one is dealing with the illegal sale of endangered species. The problem of identification and of proving that a certain bird or animal was illegally imported is very difficult. All the advantage lies with the defendant in these cases and, therefore, I hope that the exceptions that are made for prosecutions undertaken by a Law Officer or by the Customs and Excise will extend to the police.
It may be that what one does for a Law Officer or the Customs and Excise one does not do for the police. That may be a reflection, if you like, on the police, or at least it is perhaps a testimonial to Law Officers or to the Customs and Excise that they would not bring a prosecution frivolously or without a good deal of evidence that the charge could be brought home to the defendant. However, this trade is so squalid, and the people engaged in it so despicable, that I think we are justified in being severe with them; otherwise the protection given to an endangered species ceases to be adequate and they become more endangered still. I think we have to depart in this case from any general rule we might have on this subject and ask the defendant to show at least that he held these endangered species lawfully. The charge against him is that he unlawfully stole them. But, at least, he should prove that they were lawfully in his possession. So I support this amendment.
Lord Craigton: I also rise to support this amendment. The intention behind the Washington Convention was to protect endangered species by strictly controlling the trade in them. Everyone in this House knows that this just is not working as well as it should. In practice, such rare creatures reach the market because it is claimed that they are a common species and are not subject to control. In some cases, it is almost impossible to tell the difference. Such deliberate, incorrect labelling, forgery of documents and smuggling are all part of this unpleasant trade. Our weapon is the 1976 Act, which the noble Lord seeks to strengthen. Unless commercial markets are effectively controlled, the illegal trade will continue to undermine the efforts of the countries of origin of these endangered species to protect and conserve them in their natural environment. I support the amendment.
Lord Gridley: I should like to support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord. Lord Beaumont of Whitley. I do so very briefly from experience of having served over a number of years in an overseas
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customs and excise department, dealing with smuggling. People who enter into this trade do so for profit, and all kinds of subterfuges are adopted by them. I have recently had some experience of the practices followed by people who engage in this trade, and I think that there is a necessity for this amendment. Therefore, I certainly support it.
Lord Mowbray and Stourton: I do not want to be in any way derogatory about this amendment, because I totally support the principle lying behind it. But if we passed this amendment into law, we should be in danger of putting a lot of innocent people at risk. There are so many bits of ivory which are legally entering world markets. Elephants die and tusks come onto the market legally, and if every tradesman dealing in ivory had to prove that he had a perfect right to it, it would put an enormous onus on him.
I am not trying to be a wet blanket about this, because, in principle, I strongly support the amendment. But it goes frightfully wide and it is on the wideness of this amendment that I should like to hear from the Government. Innocent people are dealing in ivory which has come from dead elephants' tusks and there is nothing wrong with that. The noble Lord, Lord Melchett, and I corresponded for weeks and months on this and I could not agree more that everything we can do to stop illegal trading is all to the good. But how does one get to the root of this? And is this amendment not a little dangerous? That is all I am asking your Lordships to consider.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: This amendment relates to living species—not to products, not to tusks and not to skins. It relates to endangered species.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: The noble Lord, Lord Mowbray, said that he did not want to be a wet blanket, but I think he was being one.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: I am a little surprised at the strength of the arguments which have been introduced in favour of this amendment, and we may have to think about it again. The reason I say that is that we have had legal advice that the powers are sufficient. I am also told that the customs powers which are already in existence are considered sufficient to cover breaches of the import prohibition. This is evidenced by the ever-increasing number of seizures which are made at ports and airports.
Lord Melchett: I am sorry to interrupt, but the amendment strikes at the question of prosecutions. I hope the noble Lord may be going on to tell us about the ever-increasing number of prosecutions, but I doubt that he will be able to.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: I was going on to the question of prosecutions. Obviously, the difficulty here is that the burden of proof, as the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, said, is being shifted under this amendment. As the Committee knows, it is usual in criminal proceedings that the burden is on the prosecutor and not on the defendant. That is the nub of the problem over this amendment. I think most noble Lords would not wish to have an exception to the

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normal legal process. But, as I said, the case has been so strongly put forward that I shall take further advice and, if it seems that something should be done on these lines, we will amend the Bill on Report.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: May I just say with great respect that I think the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, got his last intervention slightly wrong? In fact, this amendment deals with products, whereas the next amendment deals only with living animals. The noble Lord, Lord Mowbray, raised the very important question of the danger to innocent people. I am very well aware of this problem and would not wish to widen unnecessarily the number of cases in which the burden or proof is on the ordinary person.
But I find it difficult to think of instances where, in innocent cases, it would not be very easy for the defendants to prove that they had bought something from someone else or that they had had it some time. This is a case where the enormous number of guilty people who would be caught would not be at all balanced by the innocent. Quite honestly, I cannot visualise, in practice, the kind of case which the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray, quite rightly produced in theory. Having made those two points, I should like to say how much I welcome the Government's undertaking to look at this again, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 241 not moved.]
3.18 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley Lord Beaumont of Whitley moved Amendment No. 242:
Page 54, line 41, at end insert—
(" In section 5 of the 1976 Act, subsections (1) and (2) shall be omitted, and there shall be inserted the following sub-sections:—

" (1) The Secretary of State shall make an order under this section relating to live animals of the kinds to which Schedule 1 to this Act for the time being applies.

(2) An order under this section shall provide that (subject to such exceptions as may be specified in the order) it is prohibited to do the following—

(a)

(i) either to import by sea any live animal of any kind to which the order is expressed to relate; or

(ii) to import any such animal by sea unless it is imported at a port or one of the ports specified in the order in relation to animals of that kind;

(b)

(i) either to import any such animal by air; or

(ii) to import any such animal by air unless it is unloaded at an airport or one of the airports specified in the order in relation to animals of that kind;

(c)

(i) either to import any such animal by land; or

(ii) to import any such animal by land unless it is brought across the boundary into Northern Ireland at a place or one of the places specified in the order in relation to animals of that kind.".").

The noble Lord said: This carries on the discussion of the 1976 Act and the difficulties raised by its major exemption. Here we move on from just the products of animals to the animals themselves, and to the method of enforcing with greater efficiency the control at ports of entry. The Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976 is one of the best pieces of EEC legislation to control the trade in endangered species and their products, but as we have already heard there are considerable practical problems.
At present, we allow trade in endangered species to be continued through any of our land, air or sea ports. This poses serious problems with regard to monitoring the levels of trade in particular species; ensuring the welfare of live species, particularly exotic ones from other continents; providing adequate enforcement controls to meet out international obligations to ban or limit trade in certain wild species; providing adequate quarantine facilities and providing auxiliary expertise, either zoological or veterinary, to customs officers who are experiencing difficulties in the course of exercising their duties.
Section 5 of the 1976 Act gives the Secretary of State power to restrict places at which live animals may be imported; in particular, to assist the discovery of any importation of species in which trade is banned. So far, this permissive power has not been acted upon and this amendment would oblige the Secretary of State so to designate certain ports. Obviously, if the Secretary of State were to say that he was intending to enforce the power that he already has and proceeded in that way, that would be an equally happy solution to the problem. The principle already is in force for the control of rabies, where only certain ports handle freight in domestic animals. It would seem to be logical to extend this system to wild species as well. The advantages would be considerable. I believe there is reason to think that Customs and Excise would also welcome the proposal.
It should be stressed that this amendment applies only to live animals. It does not include their products. It is a very limited amendment. At present we expect all our customs officers to understand the complexities involved in differentiating between species, many of which seem similar even to the knowledgeable layman. By restricting ports of entry to a small number, this expertise may be built up among a small group of customs officers who could be effectively and economically trained to identify listed species, the trade in which is banned or otherwise controlled. Moreover, in the case of difficulties, outside expertise could be more easily drawn upon. Already there are experts in species identification. Members of the Species Conservation Monitoring Unit are part of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature who are prepared to assist customs officers, if necessary.
In the case of live animals turning up at other ports, the problem of identification would not occur. A live animal can easily be rerouted. Facilities for the effective handling of live animals would also be much more readily established, ensuring that their welfare was properly considered. Corresponding checks for disease and quarantine controls would be more effectively enforced than can presently be the case. Many of our obligations as a signatory of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species depend upon controlling the trade at entry: checking that licences are in order, verifying their country of origin and intended destination and ensuring that certain species are not traded in. This is a difficult and a wide-reaching task. It would be made much easier by having limited ports of entry.
The only substantial change in the enforcement procedure proposed by the Wildlife and Countryside Bill is the provision to allow customs officers to inspect on demand the premises of licence holders where live

15
animals or plants which have been imported under licence are kept. That is good, so far as it goes, but it is not enough to overcome the current enforcement difficulties. Europe is currently one of the largest markets in the world for trade in endangered species. For conservation to be effective it is essential that these efforts to protect those species in their natural environment by their countries of origin are backed up by those countries, mainly in the industrial west, where the trade in endangered species is established. It was for this reason that we signed the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. This amendment will help to tighten up the enforcement procedure and ensure that we as a nation meet our international conservation obligations. I beg to move.
3.23 p.m.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: I strongly support the amendment. I think we can congratulate ourselves upon having perhaps the best piece of legislation for the protection of endangered species of any country in the Common Market. There are some things that we are good at. There are other things we are better at than other countries. On those rare occasions when we are better than anybody else it is worthwhile noticing it, just for morale purposes, if nothing else.
I wish to stress that again we are dealing with living things. The problems over importing the products of endangered species arc difficult enough—obviously it would be almost impossible to channel those through designated points of entry—but for living species it is possible to do what the amendment proposes. Indeed, it is not only possible; it is already permissive, as the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, has said. We want to know from the Minister why the Secretary of State has not so far used the power that has already been given to him—this is important—before we insist that he should. We shall listen very carefully to the reply on that very point. Otherwise, we are minded to start the afternoon with a little show of strength, we hope.
It is important that every effort should be made to stop some of the scandals that we read about concerning the importing of endangered species from other countries. It is quite reprehensible that the RSPCA, for example, should have to keep a large unit of veterinary and other qualified persons at Heathrow to take care of the scandalous conditions in which many species are imported into this country. It is heartrending sometimes to read of the conditions under which birds and animals arrive. One wonders whatever possesses the so-called human beings at the other end of the line to cram these animals and birds into small spaces, thus killing large numbers of them before they arrive. This amendment would not stop all that, but at least it would enable better provision to be made for reception at designated points of entry. It would also enable the Customs and Excise officers to be more knowledgeable in identifying the kind of species which are banned and upon which they might have to take action.
I hope that the Minister has a convincing answer to the question why the power already given has not been used. He will have to be equally convincing in persuading us that we should refrain from imposing
16
this obligation upon him if we are of the opinion that the Secretary of State has not been as zealous or as imaginative as he should have been in using the powers already given by the 1976 Act.
Lord Craigton: The problem raised by the amendment has for a long time seriously worried both the conservation and the zoo world. I know that the cost of putting right ports of entry is very high—I have written to the Minister and suggested this—but, as the noble Lord has just said, I would ask the Minister to go as far as he possibly can in meeting, if not this amendment the spirit behind it. Each place of entry ideally needs adequate quarantine, adequate temporary accommodation and zoological and veterinary experts and customs officers able to differentiate between the species. We cannot hope that this will happen everywhere but there are ports where the position could be very much improved. From the point of view of the taxpayer, the fewer the authorised places of entry the better and the cheaper the control would become. Therefore I strongly support the amendment.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: In the RSPB we have been preaching this for years and have produced a great deal of information showing the appalling results of this not being done. Nobody in the Governments of either party has ever given a reason which satisfied me for one moment that a great deal more could not be done about it. I hope very much that we can be told that something more will be done.
The Earl of Onslow: Cannot the airlines in particular be prosecuted or made to enforce their own regulations when cases arise of the type which we see from time to time splashed across the national newspapers: birds, mammals, or whatever it may be being imported and being killed in large numbers in their boxes? This really is an affront. Can they not be held more responsible? That is the first question I should like to ask.
Secondly, I think one must put on record the excellence of the RSPCA hostel at Heathrow. It is extremely good and we should be very proud of it and thank the RSPCA for running it. But there is a caveat that I think one should enter. Let us assume for the sake of argument that the Government accept at least the spirit of this amendment, and somebody uses a port or airfield without facilities for quarantine or veterinary examination. Will that not possibly produce a situation we have not foreseen? I just put that thought into my noble friend's mind before he answers. On the whole, I would support the spirit of this amendment if not the actual wording.
Lord Melchett: I should like to ask the noble Earl whether he would accept that at the moment, when there is absolutely no restriction on ports of entry, the problem he has mentioned is much more likely to arise than if the amendment is accepted and there is some protection.
The Earl of Onslow: I see the force of that argument as well.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: We touched on this in a short debate on the question whether Clause 14 should

17
stand part of the Bill, and I am afraid that I must oppose this amendment. We have recently undertaken a review of the working of the whole of the licensing arrangements under the 1976 Act, and among all the various aspects considered was the question of whether points of entry should be designated for the importation of live animals. Your Lordships will be aware that a power enabling such designation to be made is already available in the Act, as the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, mentioned. We concluded that there might be a benefit in designating ports of entry for certain species, but that the overall designation of ports would not be of value. There is the constant problem of what to do with live animals that turn up where they are not expected. It is not, for example, in the interests of the animals themselves to have them sent back or even diverted to another port. By the time they get there it may be too late. All the evidence from countries which operate blanket designation is that it does not aid enforcement to the extent that is sometimes claimed.
There have been recent instances, however, where we have used the power in the 1976 Act to place a condition on an import licence that the consignment be imported at a specified place and even at a specified time. This is an invaluable aid when we have reason to suspect that certain consignments may be irregular, and it is our firm intention to make increasing use of this device. There is a great advantage in that we can get all the exports at the port which has been designated on the licence, and we find that this works extremely well. If ports are designated it encourages people to bring animals in at other places clandestinely. So we believe this is a better system then designating ports.
Lord Melchett: I simply do not understand this. It is exactly the point that was made by the noble Earl, Lord Onslow; I did not understand it then and I do not understand it now. If you give somebody a licence and specify a place and a time, say London Airport at 11o'clock, and the animal turns up at Glasgow two days later—in other words, the wrong place is deliberately used, at the wrong time—does that not lead to exactly the same sort of problems as having a blanket designation of ports? I cannot see any difference.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: But they lose their licence.
Lord Melchett: But they will lose their licence if they do not go to a designated port of entry. If there is a limited number of ports of entry which are designated, of which Heathrow might well be one and perhaps there would be one other, if somebody takes live animals to any other port of entry they will lose whatever licence they might have had. I simply do not see the difference.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: We are of course talking about endangered species. Eighty per cent of the animals that come in are neither endangered nor vulnerable, and it is really about endangered species that we are talking, where a licence is required. If we tie that to the port of entry and even the time of entry it probably gives as good a control of the situation as one could possibly get.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: But the two methods are in no way exclusive. Surely we should have both. The system of designated licences is admirable but it does not exclude the refusal to accept animals elsewhere than at a certain number of ports. I cannot follow the argument at all.
3.35 p.m.
The Earl of Onslow: Instinctively, a designated port is suggested, and the arguments adduced by the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, are very powerful. But what happens to a peregrine falcon if it lands in an aeroplane at Leith when it is supposed to land in an aeroplane at Heathrow, and the man has a one-off licence and it is said that it cannot land? What do you do with it? Do you send it back? Do you knock it on the head? That would achieve nothing, except that you would fine the man the equivalent of £5,000 which is the value of the falcon, or whatever it may be. It is a very difficult problem. Having listened to the argument, I think that my noble friend has power behind his case.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: The first thing you do is to stop this particular event happening, because the person who sends it to the wrong place, for one reason or another, loses the value of the bird.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: Of course noble Lords who are in favour of this amendment welcome the increasing designation of ports for specific licences. That is very useful and I am delighted that it is being done. It probably achieves a lot, but the Government have said nothing—although the noble Earl was making faces across the Chamber—which makes me want to withdraw this amendment. The point, validly raised, about animals possibly suffering because they come to ports where they are not allowed to come, is, I am sure, true. But I am quite clear that it will be well outweighed by the growing proportion of animals which come to designated ports and therefore are well looked after, and do not run into the kind of problems that we have heard about at other ports and other airfields.
Lord Melchett: If I may interrupt the noble Lord, will he accept that the position of an endangered species going to a port which is not designated in future, if the amendment is accepted, as I hope it will be, will be absolutely no different from the present position? If somebody suspects that an animal is being illegally imported, it can be seized and placed with a competent zoological garden, just as happens now. There will be absolutely no change.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: Indeed. Of course there will be problems, but they will be less if this amendment is passed—very considerably less—than if it is not passed. I do not take the other main point which was made about clandestine smuggling. All right, it may be that there will be some. I do not know quite what the Government have in mind. If they are speaking about clandestine smuggling at ports of entry other than the designated ones, it is difficult to see why it should be any more so than it is at the moment, and the chances of discovering a boa constrictor tucked away in someone's suitcase will be exactly the same as they are now.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: I understand that in the United States of America they have had considerable difficulties as a result of their blanket designation. That is one of the reasons why we prefer the licensing system.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: Perhaps the noble Lord would care to expand on that. What kind of difficulties have they had?
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: I am sorry, I cannot expand on it. All I know is that they have had difficulties and that is one of the reasons why we have decided on this as being a better system. I cannot say much more on this subject. The noble Lord either withdraws the amendment or he does not.
Lord Melchett: If the noble Lord cannot expand on the difficulties that they have had in the United States, perhaps he can confirm that they are maintaining the system of restricted ports of entry and not changing it back to the English system; so that they are not doing what the noble Lord is trying to do.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: They have not changed it yet, but it may be with our good example they will do so.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: If I may continue with my argument about clandestine smuggling, if the noble Lord is saying that this will be not at normal ports of entry but by motor boats from the French coast or something like that, I do not see that that would be any more encouraged if this amendment is passed than if it is not. I must admit that I am intrigued by what the noble Lord the Minister says about American experience. I wish we had been given greater information about this; it seems to me very germane to the Government's case, and after all it is they who are putting this Bill forward. I am surprised that they have not thought fit to enlarge upon this particular argument.
However, I am in some doubt as to how to proceed. It seems to me that in a way the noble Lord has said that the choice is between withdrawing this amendment and pressing it, and although I would be interested to hear the American experience, I have heard nothing in the Government's argument so far to cause me to withdraw the amendment. Therefore, I think we ought probably to try the feeling of your Lordships' Committee.
3.41 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 242) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 66; Not-Contents, 83.

CONTENTS

Amulree, L.

Blyton, L.

Aylestone, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Balogh, L.

Briginshaw, L.

Banks, L.

Brockway, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L. [Teller.]

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Burton of Coventry, B.

Beswick, L.

Byers, L.

Blease, L.

Chelwood, L.

20

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Lloyd of Hampstead, L.

Craigton, L.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Cranbrook, E.

Lucas of Chilworth, L.

David, B.

Melchett, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Milverton, L.

Diamond, L.

Mishcon, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Oram, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

Pargiter, L.

Evans of Hungershall, L.

Peart, L.

Foot, L.

Phillips, B.

Gaitskell, B.

St. Davids, V.

Gore-Booth, L.

Seear, B.

Gosford, E.

Shinwell, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Somers, L.

Gregson, L.

Stamp, L.

Gridley, L.

Stedman, B.

Hale, L.

Stone, L.

Halsbury, E.

Strabolgi, L.

Hampton, L.

Strauss, L.

Henderson, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L. [Teller.]

Thurso, V.

Underhill, L.

Irving of Dartford, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Jacques, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Leatherland, L.

White, B.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Killearn, L.

Allerton, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Ampthill, L.

Kinnaird, L.

Avon, E.

Lauderdale, E.

Bathurst, E.

Lindsey of Abingdon, E.

Bellwin, L.

Long, V.

Bessborough, E.

Lonsdale, E.

Boyd-Carpenter, L.

Loudoun, C.

Caithness, E.

Lovat, L.

Cathcart, E.

Lyell, L.

Clancarty, E.

McFadzean, L.

Clwyd, L.

Mancroft, L.

Cockfield, L.

Margadale, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Marley, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Dacre of Glanton, L.

Middleton, L.

Daventry, V.

Monk Bretton, L.

De Freyne, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Newall, L.

Derwent, L.

Northchurch, B.

Drumalbyn, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Dundee, E.

Onslow, E.

Ebbisham, L.

Radnor, E.

Effingham, E.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Ellenborough, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Savile, L.

Energlyn, L.

Seebohm, L.

Exeter, M.

Sharples, B.

Ferrers, E.

Skelmersdale, L.

Gainford, L.

Soames, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Spens, L.

Gisborough, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Glenkinglas, L.

Stradbroke, E.

Gormanston, V.

Strathcarron, L.

Granville of Eye, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Strathspey, L.

Grimthorpe, L.

Teviot, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Trumpington, B.

Vickers, B.

Hanworth, V.

Vivian, L.

Henley, L.

Wise, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Wolverton, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
3.50 p.m.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby Lord Houghton of Sowerby had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 243:
Page 54, line 41, at end insert—
(" ( ) In any proceedings for an offence under subsections (1)

21
and (1A) any averment that an article is a restricted article shall, until the contrary be proved, be sufficient evidence of that fact.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment was dealt with along with Amendment No. 240. Therefore, I shall not move it.
[Amendment No. 243 not moved.]
Lord Craigton Lord Craigton moved Amendment No. 244:
Page 55, line 38, at end insert—

("Lorisidae Tarsiidae

Lorises, bushbabies Tarsiers").

The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 244 and, with the approval of the Committee, I shall discuss with it all the other amendments up to and including Amendment No. 271. I promise your Lordships that on this somewhat complicated matter, which I hope your Lordships will understand when I have finished—I think that I understand it—I shall not divide the Committee or seek your Lordships' opinion as to whether I am right or wrong. These amendments show yet another way in which endangered species can be better protected. They are suggested by that body which in the whole world knows best what is actually going on—namely, the IUCN body called the Wildlife Trade Monitoring Unit. That organisation monitors the trade movements around the world of endangered species protected by the Washington Convention. It has practical knowledge and experience of the difficulties of enforcement and of the evasion—often on a very massive scale—of the export and import provisions that nations seek, or should seek, to enforce.
As your Lordships will know, the Washington Convention, to which we are signatories, lists endangered species in two appendices. The species listed under Appendix I require import and export licences and as a result there is virtually no trade in the animals concerned. Appendix II aminals require licences for export only and there is more or less a free licence trade in them. As presently drafted Schedule 4, which is what I seek to amend, refers only to the animals listed in Appendix I of the Washington Convention. My amendments, apart from a few minor points to which I shall refer later, all suggest the same policy because, as your Lordships have heard when discussing the previous amendments, the schedule which I seek to improve is, I regret to say, virtually unenforceable. Those are strong words, but let me give two examples, and what I say in this connection is common to the whole series of amendments to which I am speaking today.
Asian elephants are in Appendix I and in Schedule 4. African elephants are in Appendix II and are not in the schedule. However, who can tell the difference in the ivory? I understand that it is impossible to tell the difference. Again, among the cats there are two sub-species of ocelot which appear in Appendix I. All the other sub-species of ocelot are in Appendix II and so they are not in Schedule 4. But the skins of the other sub-species are indistinguishable. One needs the skeleton to recognise one from the other. It is the skins that are traded in and the skins that we seek to protect are, in fact, being dealt in now by unscrupulous traders. So the ocelot as a whole is an endangered creature. The only safe protection is to
22
group all the Appendix I and all the Appendix II animals together, which is what I have done.
There are old world monkeys, new world monkeys, otters, cats, elephants, monitors and tortoises to mention only a few. I have reduced 85 names to 11. Thirty-one cetaceans and crocodilians are better covered by 12 names. Here is the safe, simple and easily administered way of protecting these creatures. That is the main point.
There are a number of minor amendments which I should put on the record so that the noble Lord when he comes to reply will, I hope, simply say that he notes what I say and will examine it and correct the Bill at the next stage. I shall deal first with Amendment No. 244. Bushbabies and tarsiers are on Appendix II and should be included to make the new schedule, as I suggest, complete. Amendment No. 251 adds the grey wolf. Appendix I of the Washington Convention contains the population of grey wolves from the Indian sub-continent. All the other populations are in Appendix II. The skin of the grey wolf is indistinguishable, wherever it conies from, and there is an error in having left the grey wolf off altogether, either with or without my amendment.
Amendment No. 262 is a fascinating amendment. Moschus moschiferus moschiferus, at the top of page 59 is not a Himalayan musk deer at all, or so I am advised: it is a Siberian musk deer. There are three species or sub-species on the two appendices so moschus covers the whole world population.
As regards Amendment No. 265, at the bottom of page 62 the Bill already does what I am seeking in that buceros bicornis embraces the whole species of great pied hornbill, so the phrase in brackets, "(other-wise known as …)" is, I am advised, incorrect.
Finally there is my late amendment, No. 251A. Schedule 4 refers to the Baluchistan race of Asiatic black bear. The Baluchistan race was originally on Appendix II but the CITES Convention in Costa Rica added the whole species to that appendix. So my amendment is to insert "selenarctos Thibetanus— Asiatic black bear" which covers all the Asiatic black bears, and that is correct as they are all now on Appendix I.
In these amendments, apart from the corrections to which I have just referred—and they are only really for the record—I have suggested grouping only where members of the endangered species are on the first or second appendix. With these amendments we go a long way towards affording protection, although I am aware that there are species, such as iguanas and birds, which are not in Appendix I and have been omitted from my proposals because some of the species are not in Appendix II either. So in moving this amendment and praising the new schedule as it stands, I ask the Minister how the Government, without my amendments, can hope to enforce the schedule as it stands. I do not know, and neither does the controller of the Wildlife Trade Monitoring Unit. I beg to move.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: I am grateful to my noble friend for speaking to all these amendments en bloc. I should like to say before going further that we accept Amendment No. 251A, which deals with a drafting error. I must say at the outset that the

23
species of animals listed in the Bill under the proposed Schedule 4 to the 1976 Act are those which are regarded as endangered. As my noble friend has explained, the list is that used under the 1976 Act and is basically Appendix I of the Washington Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora. Trade in the species on that appendix for commercial purposes is not allowed. Conversely, commercial trade in species not on that appendix is allowed.
It may also help noble Lords to see these amendments in perspective if I remind the Committee that all the species mentioned—and to be mentioned up to Amendment No. 271—by my noble friend are subject to full licensing control on import or export. For all parts and derivatives from these species that are considered readily recognisable by customs officers, there is also licensing control.
It is not the Government's purpose to restrict trade in species that are not in danger, and the effect of the new controls on selling is to ensure that without extending customs coverage of imports to a ridiculously wide range of goods, it is nevertheless not legal for a trader to make a profit by selling goods on the basis that they are worth more because they derive from a species in danger of extinction. I should be reluctant to add to the new Schedule 4 of the 1976 Act any species in which commercial trade is permitted under the convention. To do so would entail the consideration of a licence for the sale of these species or any part or derivative from them, and this would constitute too heavy a burden on legitimate trade and have no useful conservation benefit. Therefore, as we have the Washington Convention, by which we abide, we are not at all in favour of accepting any of my noble friend's amendments and I hope that he will withdraw them.
Lord Melchett: I followed what the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, had to say as best I could, and it seemed to me that there was a great deal more in some of the points than the noble Lord, Lord Cullen, has given him credit for. For example, if it is completely impossible to tell the difference between two species of ocelot and if the noble Lord cannot do it, if I cannot do it, if the customs officers cannot do it and if no expert in this country can do it, how can it be sensible to list one as being banned from trade and the other as not being banned from trade? It simply makes the banning a mockery; it is a nonsense; there is absolutely no point in doing it. It would be sensible to take that off Appendix I, but of course the noble Lord and the Government cannot do that because they would be in breach of the CITES Convention. Therefore, it seems to me that they are saying "All right, we will obey the letter of the law, but we will make darn sure that it does not work in practice by not listing something which is indistinguishable from the species that we are banning from trade". That is just one narrow point of a number which the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, raise, and to which the noble Lord, Lord Cullen, did not even begin to respond.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: The basic point is whether or not we stick to the Washington Convention. If
24
what my noble friend has said about the "look alike" problem is true—and I have no doubt that it is—then it would be up to the Washington Convention to alter its appendices, because this is an international convention and we should all go with it. It is very likely that we would make that suggestion to the Washington Convention.
Lord Melchett: If that is to be the stance of Her Majesty's Government at the Washington Convention meeting in New Delhi and of this country internationally on world conservation matters, it is a deplorable state of affairs. We were one of the first countries to ratify this convention. Originally we introduced legislation to ensure that we could control endangered species by using a section of the legislation left over from the Second World War, in order that we could be in the forefront of setting an example to the rest of the world.
It seems to me to be deplorable for a developed and rich country like ours not to give some sort of lead to the developing world, where economic problems and economic pressures on people are far greater than they are in this country, bad though it may be here at present. For the noble Lord to say, "We will stick to the letter of the Washington Convention, even though we know that that means that our own domestic legislation is a mockery, is totally unenforceable, but that does not matter", surely is not the attitude that this country should take internationally on a matter like this, and it certainly is not the attitude that, so far as I am aware, this country has taken up to now.
The Earl of Avon: I have not yet spoken, although the Opposition Front Bench has spoken quite a lot this afternoon. Of course, we are going to Delhi with a good plan, and, of course, we are going to Delhi hoping to lead as we have done before. There is no doubt that this Government's attitude will be as it was at the last conference, and we hope to achieve as much and to lead as we did at the last conference. Having said that, we shall certainly read what my noble friend Lord Craigton said and of course we shall see whether we can adapt in some way. But I must back up my noble fridnd Lord Cullen about the Washington Convention; it is there to be our guideline.
The Earl of Onslow: I think that we must press Her Majesty's Government a little more on this recognition point. Let us assume that a chap comes before the customs officer with a load of ivory, puts on a blank face and says, "This is African elephant ivory" when, in fact, it is Indian elephant ivory. The customs officer would not have the slightest clue whether or not it was African. Surely, this is a matter about which we should do something, and we should not allow such a trade to continue. This recognition point seems to me to be the most important of all the points made by my noble friend Lord Craigton. Perhaps the Government could say, "Yes, we will go away and look at this; we understand that this is a major problem, and we must try to do something about it". If they do not do anything about it, from what I have heard it seems that a coach and horses could be driven through the legislation. Please will they go away and think about it constructively and hard, in order to put right this very important matter?
Viscount Hanworth: Surely the noble Lord appreciates that these international conferences frequently produce a result which is the lowest possible denominator. Surely we are interested enough in conservation to take a lead in advance of a conference. This is one way of achieving our object at a conference. It is quite extraordinary that the Government should shelter behind an international conference and will not take any action over these species where clearly the law cannot be enforced. It is a mockery.
Lord Melchett: In order to save time, may I say to the noble Earl, Lord Avon, that I was extremely grateful for his response and for his commitment on behalf of the Government to look at this. I am sure that that will also satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Craigton.
Lord Mowbray and Stourton: Before my noble friend replies, I, too, should like to support what my noble friends have said. I appreciate what my noble friend Lord Onslow has said. I am sure that the Government are well aware of my noble friend's words of wisdom, but it is slightly annoying that their actions are dragging behind what is necessary. Surely it would be practical for the Government to table amendments before their noble friends and the Opposition do so for them.
Lord Craigton: I had rather anticipated the reply which my noble friend on the Front Bench gave. I wanted to raise this matter—and I am grateful for noble Lords' support—because we are genuinely and gravely worried about the question of the "look alikes". We wanted to bring pressure to bear on the Government to make them realise that this is not something which we can stand idly by and watch happen. There is the debate at CITES in New Delhi, and it is timely that this debate should take place now because I am sure that this subject will be discussed at New Delhi. My noble friend Lord Avon said that we will lead as before.
I do not know whether your Lordships know that at Costa Rica the Government representative—the civil servant concerned—with the assistance of the non-governmental organisations, achieved a most wonderful series of successes at the Washington Convention. We have much to thank him for and I am glad to hear that we shall endeavour to do the same again. I leave it at that. I am grateful that the Government have promised to look at this matter again. I thank the noble Lord for the Himalayan black bear. I think that we shall have to add the wolf because, likewise, that is a clerical error. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 245 to 251 not moved.]
Lord Craigton Lord Craigton moved Amendment No. 251A:
Page 57, leave out lines 20 and 21 and insert:

("Selenarctos Thibetanus

Asiatic Black Bear").

On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 252 to 271 not moved.]
Schedule 9, as amended, agreed to.
[Amendment No. 271A not moved.]
Clause 15 [Power to grant licences]:
[Amendment No. 272 not moved.]
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Aberdare): I have to point out that if Amendment No. 273 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 274.
4.10 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley Lord Beaumont of Whitley moved Amendment No. 273:
Page 14, line 35, leave out paragraph (f).
The noble Lord said: Matters have moved rather quickly, and I beg your Lordships' pardon while I find the place in the Bill.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: While the noble Lord is doing that, could I suggest that we discuss Amendment No. 274 at the same time, because it is a modified version of the noble Lord's amendment?
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: I am delighted that we should consider it at the same time if that meets the wishes of your Lordships' Committee. Mine is a more general and probing amendment. There is this worrying remark, statement, sentence at the beginning of Clause 15:
" Sections 1 to 8 do not apply to anything done—"
Then it goes on to list a number of motives for doing things which immediately give a blanket exemption from everything in Sections 1 to 8. Even if every single one of these purposes is correct it does not seem to be a very good thing. Admittedly it has to be done under, and in accordance with, the terms of a licence granted by the appropriate authority. But it is sufficient to say that there are whole areas here which give rather more leeway to the Secretary of State than one would normally have wanted in a Bill of this kind.
I have put down two amendments, one of which I share with the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, Amendment No. 276. They are probing amendments to find out exactly what is intended by the Government, how they justify these particular exemptions, and to allow them to give what I think are very necessary assurances that the permissions that they give, and the licences they give, will be very limited, and will deal with specific points which they have already thought about and which they are now prepared to explain to your Lordships' Committee.
The first one I have chosen with the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, is paragraph (f). Licences can be granted to do anything in Sections 1 to 8,
"…for the purpose of providing food for human consumption or for poultry, ornamental ducks, ornamental geese, or swans; "
I repeat,
"… for the purpose of providing food for human consumption ".
That seems fairly wide in itself, if it really does give blanket powers to the Secretary of State, and it is not necessarily acceptable as it stands. But the second half of it I do not understand one little bit. I understand,
"for the purpose of providing food for human consumption",
but I do not understand the second half. Is the grammar of this that it is,

27
"… for the purpose of providing food … for poultry, ornamental ducks, ornamental geese or swans;"
or is it even more recondite than that? Why indeed, if it means that, should you have to take special steps and give licences under Sections 1 to 8 in order to feed ornamental ducks? I am completely baffled by the second half of this, and I look forward with interest to the Government's explanation. I beg to move.
4.14 p.m.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: May I speak to my amendment, which is the next one? First, I should like to agree with the generalities which the noble Lord put forward as to the whole of these exceptions. We want to scrutinise them very carefully and see that the exceptions are limited and, so far as possible, specific, and I shall move amendments to that effect a little later. In relation to this particular amendment it clearly is historical in some sense. It makes no sense in this country whatever. Because the collecting of any form of egg is forbidden, except for the collecting of gulls' eggs for human consumption, it should make that available by licence. We do not want everybody collecting gulls' eggs everywhere, but those people who wish to do so can perfectly well get a licence to do so. That is as far as it should go. The other things in the amendment, as the noble Lord said.
"… poultry, ornamental ducks, ornamental geese or swans;"
are entirely irrelevant and should be cut out, though my amendment is only to insert the one thing which is sensible; and I hope that of the two amendments noble Lords might prefer mine.
Lord Gibson-Watt: I should like only to strike a slight note of discord here. If this amendment means that everybody has to get a licence to collect gulls' eggs, I think that the Government would be in great danger of seeing this law disobeyed very often. That would be a pity, because this includes the eggs of the black-headed gull and a vast number of people throughout the country pick them up and eat them and sell them, and all the rest of it. The black-headed gull, as we all know, and the RSPB know very well, is a bird which if you take its nest the first time will go and lay a second nest. It is in no danger whatever of being in short supply. I hope that this amendment does not go quite so far as I think it does.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: May I say a word on that? The intention of this amendment, and like that of the noble Lord it is a probing amendment, is that we want to stop the freedom given under paragraph (f) that if the purpose is
"providing food for … poultry, ornamental ducks, ornamental geese or swans; "
you cannot get a licence for it. We do not want to exclude the perfectly legitimate collection of gulls' eggs. I have no doubt that in certain areas for commercial collection it might be desirable to get licences, but for individuals collecting where there are plenty if a means can be found of making this all right, I should not object.
The Earl of Onslow: Can my noble friend answer this? As I read it, it means that you can apply for a licence to feed a black-necked grebe to your ornamental swan? Is that true? If it is, it seems a funny state of affairs. I may, needless to say, have utterly misread the clause.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: These exceptions subject to the granting of a licence go very wide indeed. I wonder whether somebody sat down to find all the possibilities of the situation and stick them on the list, because we come in a moment to,
" for the purposes of any public exhibition or competition; ".
Then we come to photography. I wonder there is not a paragraph at the end, "and for any other purpose not covered by the above". The wide descriptions of possible exceptions subject to licence suggest that somebody is contemplating very wide permission to escape the probitions of the new law.
When one looks at the principal clauses concerned I to 8 and 9 to 12, and then looks at the provisions here in Clause 15 regarding animals and birds, one wonders whether there will be any real protection at all. Considering that the licences can be granted as freely as some bureacracy decides, or depending on how ready they are to respond to strong claims for exemption, it seems to me that far too much licence has been given for the issue of licences. That is why 1 support the amendment relating to paragraph (f) and it may not be necessary for me to speak again on paragraphs (h) or (j). These conditions of licence need to be scrutinised with care because this is the final let-out in the Bill. While all the others that go before are quite extensive on their own, this is the final one because, subject to a licence, one can do all the things that are prohibited earlier in the Bill and listed under these various headings.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: Surely at the end of the day one would have to convince the licensing authority that one had a case, and I have always found it difficult to convince civil servants that I have a case; they are always very well prepared by Ministers and people like the noble Lord, Lord Houghton. I think the noble Lord has missed the point. One cannot do it just because it says in the Bill that one is providing food for an ornamental duck; one must convince the licensing authority that it needs to be done.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: I assure the noble Lord that I have not missed the point. It is just that perhaps he has greater confidence in bureacracy than I have.
The Earl of Avon: The noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, has raised an interesting point. I have raised it personally and so far I have had no satisfactory answer. I would therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment at this stage, and if I still do not have a satisfactory answer by Report, I shall ensure that the offending few words are removed—that is, not the gulls' eggs for human consumption part of it but the ornamental side of the amendment. As I say, I have been trying to find the answer but have so far failed to do so.
Coming to the gulls' eggs side of the matter, in particular Amendment No. 274, I do not know to what extent the Committee would like me to deal with general licensing at this stage, but this is an ex-

29
cellent example of where one would have a blanket licence for the collection of gulls' eggs. Later, when we come to specific licences—again an amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson—I shall make the point that this is the sort of example where we do not want to be all that specific because it would obviously be impossible to licence everybody collecting gulls' eggs in Scotland. I would remind the Committee that in an earlier debate I explained that to sell gulls' eggs also needed a licence.
I assure the Committee that we do not intend to issue licences that would go beyond what is allowed in the 1954 Act, and of course none would be issued to allow the taking of eggs of species in areas where it could harm the conservation status of that species. However, we resist the amendment, as it would, among other things, prevent the issue of licences to take the eggs of the lapwing, which currently can be done before 15th April. There is not, we are informed, a conservation case for introducing a total ban on this traditional activity. If in the future it was shown scientifically to be necessary, licences would not be issued. I hope I have made myself clear to the noble Lord.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: Yes, but I should like to see what sort of amendment the Government produce. There are difficulties here. I do not wish to make it illegal to pick up a gull's egg. On the other hand, I do not wish to agree to blanket licences, something that could be most dangerous, although we shall discuss that on a later amendment. I am therefore in rather a dilemma in knowing how to play this hand. It might be possible to have a licence covering a very limited area, or something of that sort, so that the collection of gulls' eggs, about which we heard such a sad story concerning Scotland, could be carried out in that area. However, this is a probing amendment and we shall be interested to see what the Government produce on this subject. On that basis, I beg to ask leave—
Lord Chelwood: First may I say a brief word about the lapwing? I remember that in 1954 and 1967 we had endless discussions about the taking of lapwings' eggs. That has not arisen yet, but obviously the taking of their eggs would be covered by the amendment and I would be grateful if the Minister could comment on this later in the Bill. As I understand it, under the 1954 Act is was possible to take lapwings' eggs before 15th April in any year and to sell them, but under the 1967 Act it was made illegal to take the eggs of this species before 15th April, and the sale of the eggs was also forbidden.
I understand that the EEC Directive on the Conservation of Wild Birds prohibits the taking of birds' eggs except under licence. That applies to all birds except those on the pest list. In future, therefore, it will be illegal to take lapwings' eggs at any time except by licence, and I presume the same applies to gulls' eggs for human consumption. It will be necessary, I understand, to have a licence to take the eggs of any bird other than those listed in Part II of Schedule 2. Licences will no doubt be given for those purposes, certainly for gulls' eggs and maybe for lapwings' eggs, but presumably—and I hope I am
30
right in saying this—they will be given to persons only if they can demonstrate that they have the landowners' permission and that there is no conservation problem. I shall be grateful if my noble friend can confirm at a later stage what I have said.
Lord Melchett: That emphasises the weakness of the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Avon, that this would be a good case for general licences; if we are to ensure that the landowner's permission has been given, that of necessity must mean that licences are specific.
The Earl of Onslow: If a general licence were given subject to the landlowner's permission, that would not necessarily follow.
Lord Beaumlnt of Whitley: So far as my amendment is concerned—the one which the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, was trying to withdraw—I have some sympathy with him because I am delighted that the Minister is seeking an explanation himself. When he has got it, I trust he will share it with me, I hope in ample time for the Report stage. In the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 274 not moved.]
4.28 p.m.
The Earl of Avon The Earl of Avon moved Amendment No. 275:
Page 14, line 38, leave out paragraph (g).
The noble Earl said: I shall, with permission, speak at the same time to Amendments Nos. 278, 314 and 319, which are consequential. These are complementary and technical amendments which have the effect of transferring the purpose of preserving public health or public or air safety for the granting of a licence from paragraph (g) to the paragraph before (k). If this is done, the three public policy purposes will be listed consecutively. This sequence of listing will also accord with the sequence used in Amendment No. 52, to which your Lordship agreed as long ago as 27th January. The latter amendments, Nos. 314 and 319, adjust the appropriate reference in the context of the licensing authority and on consultation as a consequence of the proposed change. I beg to move.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I am content to support the amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley Lord Beaumont of Whitley moved Amendment No. 276:
Page 14, line 40, leave out paragraph (h).
The noble Lord said: This is, so far as I am concerned, another probing amendment, although the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, may have deeper motives than I have. The Notes on Clauses say:
" The Bill includes in Clause 6 a restriction on exhibition for competition purposes. The new purpose is included to allow the possibility of other birds, besides those in Schedule 3, being exhibited ".
That is a very wide little piece of legislation, is it not? to empower the Secretary of State to produce licences

31
in order to exempt from the whole of Clauses 1 to 8 for what is a rather small purpose. However, that is the wider question which I have already said something about.
On the rather narrower question, surely the correct way to deal with the possibility of birds other than those in Schedule 3 being exhibited is to expand Schedule 3, rather than to make possible this blanket exemption. I am a humble seeker after knowledge, and with those words I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: I think that I can help the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, a little on this matter. This new purpose has been included as a consequence of the restrictions placed on the competitive showing of wild birds in Clause 6, which limits such showing to specimens of species listed in Schedule 3, Part I, and would permit the showing of captive-bred specimens of other species under licence, subject as usual to consultation with the Nature Conservancy Council. We would not normally expect to issue such a licence for birds which have not been captive bred. As aviculturists improve their ability to breed certain species, this licensing provision will be of value in monitoring the progress of certain species from the category that cannot normally be freely exhibited to the ultimate addition to Schedule 3, Part I. That is something which my noble friend Lord Cranbrook may rather like. I hope that I have clarified this point sufficiently for the noble Lord.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: Yes, indeed; I am grateful to the noble Earl, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.32 p.m.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby Lord Houghton of Sowerby moved Amendment No. 277:
Page 15, leave out line 1.
The noble Lord said: I made a general comment on this clause a moment or two ago. I should like to know in what conditions photography would justify the granting of a licence to do something which otherwise would be unlawful. What kind of situation is envisaged in the granting of a licence for the purpose of photography? Is it to kill something in order to take a photograph of it, or what? I am a little dim on this. I cannot understand why it is necessary to grant a licence to do something dreadful to a living thing—an act which otherwise would be unlawful, but which is justified if one has a licence for the purpose of photography. Any good ideas that come from the Front Bench opposite I shall be prepared to consider. I beg to move.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: I should like to say a few words on this point, since I have suffered from it in Scotland, where I have some very rare birds, such as the peregrine, the golden eagle, and one or two others. I am all for having photographers licensed. I understand that they will be licensed on the advice of the Nature Conservancy Council by, I suppose, the Secretary of State, but will the landowner
32
be informed when the licence is granted? I ask that because I think of instances involving amateur photographers, many of whom come and ask, "Where is the eyrie?" If we do not like the look of them, we always send them in the opposite direction. Many people come along saying that they are ornithologists or are members of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. Of course they may be members of the society, but that does not mean that they are very expert at photographing extremely rare and shy birds. I should like to ask my noble friend on the Front Bench whether the landowner is told that people are coming to take photographs of his rare birds. I do not really understand how this works.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I do not see how it would work under a general licence; I quite agree. From the RSPB point of view, we think it desirable that most careful restrictions be imposed regarding photographing certain rare birds in certain rare conditions, and that it is done only under rather scarce licence. Apart from that, people who like to photograph birds can go to our reserves, where there is no landlord who has to be asked. From hides which we provide, they can, without licence, take what photographs they like of anything they happen to see. That is about as much as we can do for the bird photographers, I think, but the scientist must be looked after.
The Earl of Avon: The Nature Conservancy Council has been empowered to give approval to the photographing of wild birds since the offence of disturbing birds while nesting was created in the Protection of Birds Act 1967. There is therefore an established procedure for authorising photography. The offence of disturbance will under the Bill be extended from nesting birds to include young birds; that is in Schedule 1. There is a need therefore to modify the arrangements for authorising photography, and it is sensible to incorporate them within the licensing procedures. The availability of a licensing arrangement will enable the Nature Conservancy Council, as licensing authority, to determine who would be a suitable person to be allowed to photograph specially protected birds during for instance, the breeding season and to assess the circumstances in which photography should be allowed. I would submit that the alternative to a licensing system would be a total disregard for the disturbance of the birds—which I think some noble Lords have already been hinting at.
So far as landowners are concerned, the licence will enable them to see whether someone should be on their ground taking photographs. The licence also makes it clear that it does not give authority to enter land in circumstances which would be trespass. Bearing that in mind, I think that this photography is a process which, provided it is subject to strict licensing, is of benefit to people in all walks of life. I hope that the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: I am grateful for that explanation, and I am persuaded. Therefore I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Earl of Avon The Earl of Avon moved Amendment No. 278:
Page 15, line 1, at end insert—
(" ( jj) for the purpose of preserving public health or public or air safety; ").
The noble Earl said: I am grateful to my noble friends for having tabled this amendment. It is a logical consequence to the amendment to Clause 4 which has already been accepted. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of Avon The Earl of Avon moved Amendment No. 279:
Page 15, line 5, after (" to ") insert (" livestock ").
The noble Earl said: I apologise to the Committee; I spoke to this amendment on the previous amendment, which was consequential. This amendment has been tabled by three of my noble friends. It is a logical consequence of the amendment which was made to Clause 4. I beg to move.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: Before the amendment is agreed to I wish very briefly to repeat some of the points that I made when this matter last arose. We can agree to this amendment only on condition that we are given a new definition of "livestock", and I want confirmation that we are to be given that. We do not agree to game birds being included in the definition of livestock because we think it is impossible to protect birds of prey, if a licence to shoot can be got if they take game birds which are being reared in the wild. This matter has been fully discussed, but it depends on the definition which we have not yet had. I wish to reserve my position on this matter, with all guns firing, in case something goes wrong later.
The Earl of Avon: The idea is that the definition that we now have of "livestock" will be withdrawn. There will therefore be no definition of livestock, on the grounds that the normal dictionary definition will be used, rather than a definition especially intended for the Bill.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: Does that mean domestic creatures? If it does, I am content.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
4.40 p.m.
Lord Gibson-Watt Lord Gibson-Watt moved Amendment No. 280:
Page 15, line 5, after (" to ") insert (" sheep or lambs ").
The noble Lord said: We had hoped that the bronze medal which we had been given under Amendment No. 279 might have been extended to No. 280. I certainly feel that sheep and lambs should be included here, and I will not weary your Lordships by speaking any longer. I beg to move.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: As an amateur shepherd of some standing, I am happy to agree to this.
The Earl of Avon: This really is consequential on the one before, because having put in, by Amendment No. 279, the word "livestock", sheep and lambs are of course included.
Lord Gibson-Watt: In view of that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Earl of Avon The Earl of Avon moved Amendment No. 281:
Page 15, line 5, leave out (" any other form of property or to ").
The noble Earl said: This amendment is again consequential on two amendments which have been accepted, Nos. 43 and 52. It would remove from the purposes for which a licence could be issued against birds the prevention of serious damage to "any other form of property". This removal is necessitated by the terms of Article 9 of the European Community directive. I beg to move.
The Earl of Caithness: Can my noble friend confirm that he is looking at the question of the words, "any other form of property ", in view of the precedent I gave him when we last discussed this?
The Earl of Avon: Yes. I think it was my noble friend Lord Stanley who told the Committee, when we were considering Clause 4, that he considered that the revised provisions in that clause would not adequately provide for emergency control to deal with all forms of serious damage if these words were omitted. We are looking at that again. We believe that all situations where control measures require killing or taking are covered by one or other of the purposes listed in Clause 15(1). However, I know of my noble friend's concern and I will let him know by letter if I am wrong.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 282 not moved.]
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge moved Amendment No. 283:
Page 15, line 8, leave out (" appropriate authority ") and insert (" Nature Conservancy Council ").
The noble Lord said: We start a new topic of discussion here, and, if the Committee agree, I should like to speak to, first, Amendment No. 283, which is the amendment called, and also to Nos. 289, 293, 304, 308 and 316. The issue here, put in its bluntest way, is: is the right body to issue licences a body which represents one part of the community only? It is almost inevitable that at some time, however fair they may be, they will favour the farmer, whom they represent, rather than the nature lover or the conservancy lover, who will be asking for something. At the moment I think the relationship between farmers and nature lovers is not half bad. We have had very little trouble in your Lordships' House, and we have some fairly extreme representatives on both sides, of which I am happy to be one, though I also belong to the other because for many years I have made a living farming. But the fact remains that it is a highly questionable decision to take one department of government, which in many ways is the best of the lot (it is a jolly good department, and I have had to deal with it for years) but whose main interest is one particular side of the problem, and give it the right to check people on the other side who wish to go a little further.
We believe that the correct thing to do would be to give this right to the Nature Conservancy Council.

35
The Nature Conservancy Council is the Government's adviser on conservancy as a whole; conservancy includes agriculture, and is meant to include agriculture; so there would be no loss from the agricultural point of view. At the moment it looks as if, for various purposes under the Bill, there would be at least four separate Government departments empowered to grant licences; that is to say, the Secretary of State for the Environment himself, MAFF, the Nature Conservancy Council and also, presumably, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries of Scotland, the Scottish Home and Health Departments and the Welsh Office. This is the kind of thing which is always apt to happen, and I think that a Bill of this kind is the sort of place where this ought to be straightened out and made absolutely clear.
Our earnest wish is that the granting of licences should be the duty of the Nature Conservancy Council in discussion with whatever appropriate department is involved. This means that you would always go to the same place—the Nature Conservancy Council has regional offices, and a telephone call to the regional office would deal with the thing—they could build up a case history of the way they dealt with this, which if you had several departments engaged it would be very difficult to do; and clearly you would get a much quicker answer than if you had to consult three or four departments. I really think it is unanswerable.
Certainly the EEC directive on the conservation of wild birds requires member states to send a report to the Commission each year on the implementation of Article 9. This is the article which allows for delegations (which are the things we have been talking about) under this subsection (1), thus making provision for the granting of licences; and, clearly, if one body were handling licences I think the report would be a great deal more accurate and probably a good deal more punctual than it would be if it was done in any other way.
There are one or two changes in current practice which, were my amendment to fail, would cause a good deal of concern among the voluntary nature conservation bodies and the many thousands of people who appreciate our wildlife. There is a considerable involvement of the Ministry of Agriculture in the licensing arrangements as presently drafted in the Bill, and I recognise that they and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in Scotland have a considerable interest, particularly where the potential exists for birds or mammals to seriously damage crops or property. But it must be recognised that their interest reflects the wishes of one group, the agricultural industry, out of many others who may be involved.
In the past the Ministry has not always had our unqualified approval when handling problems associated with such damage. The licensed culling of oyster catchers authorised by MAFF a few years ago springs to mind. The scientific evidence upon which the authority for the cull was based was conflicting, based on widely inaccurate figures and generally most unsatisfactory. I am pleased that the culling of oyster catchers at the Burry Inlet, at least, has now ceased. That is a very good example of exactly the sort of thing which should not have happened but which did happen.
I realise that there is an element of conflict of interest here, but I am in any case opposed to the granting of sweeping licensing powers which could be abused, and, as I have said before, in a short while I shall move amendments to deal with this. But I should like to look in a little detail at the position of birds in Schedule 1 to the existing Protection of Birds Act—those rare species which will continue, with minor amendments, to be carried forward in this Bill. In the 1967 Act powers were taken to enable licences to be granted to take or kill specially protected birds in order to prevent serious damage to crops or property. Such licences, however, would only be issued by the Secretary of State after consultation with the appropriate advisory committee on wild birds. Thus, a good case had to be made, and the evidence carefully and properly considered, before a licence could be issued to allow someone to kill one of the rare birds listed in Schedule 1.
But in this Bill the power to grant licences for such purposes will be extended to cover all birds, including the rarer ones, and the package handed over to the Ministry of Agriculture. This is a major departure from what already exists and works quite well. I find the prospect of this really rather daunting and, from our point of view, quite unacceptable. The Schedule 1 species are the ones for which we must make the maximum effort, allowing the birds to be killed only if all other solutions are tried and have failed. A cool, impartial and scientific assessment of the facts must be made. This seems to be a retrograde step.
If my argument is accepted that, on the grounds of efficiency and economy, one agency alone should handle the licensing, it seems logical that that should be the Nature Conservancy Council. The Nature Conservancy Council does not want these powers; they are not anxious to do this job. I can hardly blame them. They are not given enough money to do properly what they already have to do. But somebody must do the licensing and, surely, it is far more appropriate that they should do it. Why should it cost them more than it costs MAFF to do it? At worst, if the Government will not accept my view and would make a compromise, at least the Department of the Environment is, at any rate, neutral and has a responsibility for conservancy of a stronger kind even than that of MAFF.
I think the kind of argument which may be used against my point is that it is very likely that the most informed local advisers are the ADAS ones; but this Government have been constantly cutting them back, have reduced their strength very much and have been trying to encourage them not to do things outside their purely farming business. So I think that that argument falls to the ground. I feel strongly about this and I very much hope that we can be given some satisfaction from the Government over this which is the first really major point we have had this afternoon. I beg to move.
Lord Home of the Hirsel: I was interested in the approach made by the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson. I wonder whether my noble friend could help us. The Secretary of State must ultimately be responsible, I understand for issuing licences. Will they not therefore be issued by a Government department rather than an advisory body? If that is so, one could

37
achieve part of Lord Donaldson's objective by the department (whatever department it might be) issuing the licence on the advice of the NCC. This might be the right way. If I had to choose between the Department of the Environment and the Department of Agriculture then, as a countryman, I am bound to say that I would take the Department of Agriculture every time.
Lord Gibson-Watt: Before my noble friend replies, could I say to the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, that I do not agree entirely with the arguments which he has put forward. The reasons are these. First and foremost, the NCC is an agency and not any part of Government. As he himself said it is an advisory body. I know that the RSPB would like the NCC to take this on. Indeed, the noble Lord is producing the RSPB argument this afternoon. But we must look at past and present experience in this. If one looks at what happened in the Berwyn Mountains, it was there that the NCC, acting under great pressure from the RSPB, brought in something which was going to take over a vast area of Wales under an SSSI. This is just an example of how strong is the RSPB in the councils of the NCC. The noble Lord is quite right when he says that the NCC do not wish to take this on. I do not think it would be an appropriate job for them to do.
As to his argument against the Ministry of Agriculture dealing with this, I can only speak for the part of the world that I come from. I believe that the attitudes of the Ministry of Agriculture are not quite as he put them. I would say that the Ministry of Agriculture is far the best of the various authorities which he brought forward this afternoon. I will not say more except that I hope the Government will not accept this amendment.
Lord Mowbray and Stourton: I, too, should like to support what my noble friends Lord Home and Lord Gibson-Watt have said about this. When the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, said that the last people who want these powers are the NCC, he was speaking words of gospel truth. The Department of the Environment, the Secretary of State, have the task of appointing this body. They are a very sensible, wise, advisory body. Advising is their function. I should have thought that in this country the last thing that we would want to do is to give a scientific advisory body actual, factual powers of saying yea or nay. You will make for them enemies they do not want. You will give them powers they do not want.
The Ministry of Agriculture is concerned with one of the main industries of this country, the production of food. Yet they are people who are of the country. They are well aware of where the laws of nature and agriculture cross. They do cross, we know. Sometimes, for more yield, one can do things which are not good for nature. The Ministry of Agriculture are not fools, I would suggest. I do not think they are peopled by hardfaced bureaucrats, but they are people who put on gumboots and get about the countryside. I should like to suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, in trying to press this amendment—and it is not just this amendment, but the principle we are coming to in future amendments—should not try to make two Government departments fight each other. The
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Department of Environment and the Ministry of Agriculture should be complementary. We must not try to create obstacles where they do not exist.
Lord Melchett: Could the noble Lord explain whether he is opposed to the NCC issuing any licences—which is what I take from his words? In that case, is he objecting to Clause 15(8)(c) where the Bill gives the NCC power to issue licences under a number of provisions of the clause? This seems to contradict what the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton, had to say and also some of the remarks that the noble Lord, Lord Home, made earlier.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood: I want to say a word about this. I feel strongly about it. In a long experience of farming, I have always dealt either with the Ministry of Agriculture in England or the Ministry of Agriculture in Scotland. I have never had to deal with the NCC and I think most farmers would find it rather strange if they suddenly had to deal with another organisation which they have never had anything to do with because no question of interference with conservancy had ever arisen. The Secretary of State for Scotland, whom the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, mentioned, is the authority which I think is the right authority to be used on this and other occasions where agriculture is involved. It is the same thing with the Ministry of Agriculture. I am all for consulting with the NCC if required and for their giving such advice if asked to do so but I do not think that they should be a licensing authority.
5 p.m.
Lord Chelwood: As some noble Lords know, I am a member of the NCC. I am not their spokesman but, naturally, my views on this particular subject reflect theirs, as we have discussed this matter at some length. May I for two or three minutes put on the record what generally speaking they feel about it or, at any rate, what I feel about it? I feel that the status quo should be maintained whereby the Department of the Environment and the Scottish Department remain the licensing authority for all purposes where a balance is needed between conservation and any other interests. The department currently exercises this role in local orders and through specific licences for Schedule I birds. The NCC, I feel sure, are willing to continue to administer those elements of licensing, such as licences for scientific research, ringing, marking or photography, which do not involve reaching judgments beyond those relating to the interests of wildlife conservation—in other words, only those things which are consistent with their present statutory role. A logical arrangement therefore would be for the DoE and the Scottish Department to be the sole licensing authority for those areas where the question of balance enters into consideration. That really ought to include agricultural damage. I do not think it is right that the Ministry of Agriculture should be judge and jury in its own case. They have a very special job to do for agriculture. I doubt whether they have the expertise or the capacity to ensure that the need for pest control was properly substantiated—at any rate, without the advice of the Nature Conservancy Council—that methods other than killing had been adequately

39
explored or that the terms and conditions of any licence were properly enforced.
I doubt very much whether that is really a job for the Ministry of Agriculture, though they are of course under an obligation to consult the Nature Conservancy Council if this job remains with them. The DoE has and should continue to have the primary administrative responsibility for conservation purposes for anything basically within the Protection of Birds Act. There is a major point which is that quite frankly the Nature Conservancy Council, as the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, has admitted, do not have the resources. Even if we had them we would not want to do these jobs for which we do not have the knowledge or expertise.
I think that it would be rather ridiculous to expect the Nature Conservancy Council to issue licences for the purpose of preserving public health or public safety, which they are down for at the moment, for the purpose of preventing the spread of disease or for these agricultural purposes. That does not come within their remit. The Bill has the balance just about right, excepting that there is, so far as the Nature Conservancy Council is concerned, something in Clause 15(2)(e) which is right outside the responsibility of the Nature Conservancy Council:
" for the purpose of preserving public health or public safety ".
That cannot be the Nature Conservancy's job. I would have thought that the DoE should have that. I hope very much that the Bill will remain broadly as it is and that these very heavy responsibilities will not be put on a body which really is not appropriate.
Lord Milverton: I have my name down on this amendment. I hope the Government will consider it and, if they cannot accept it, then come back to it at Report stage. Having read the different matter on it, I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, that it seems sensible that the Nature Conservancy Council should be given this task. It is appropriate and I cannot see why it should cause any ill-feeling in any way. In reading all the matter which I have read about it from different bodies, I would have thought that they should not be afraid to take this on. If they need more money, surely that is one body for which the Government should try to find a means of supplying the necessary finance.
Lord Somers: Having listened to the arguments, I am not sure that the Bill, as it stands, is satisfactory. Who is to know which the appropriate authority is? I should be hard put to judge myself. But I understand the objection to the Nature Conservancy Council being the licence-granting authority. It should be the Ministry of Agriculture in consultation with the Nature Conservancy Council.
The Earl of Avon: May I respond to Lord Donald-son's Amendment No. 283 and speak, as he did, to Amendment Nos. 289, 293, 304, 308 and 316 first. On the territorial matters, the aim is to have a Great British licence and a Great British licensing authority as such. I feel that I should open by saying a few words about the Ministry of Agriculture. I should like to allay what I think are groundless fears by
40
assuring the Committee that the Ministry fully intends to operate on the principles outlined by my noble friend Lord Bellwin in the Second Reading debate; that is, that licences will be issued in accordance with policies which take account of the extent of damage caused, the conservation status of the species involved and the availability of alternate methods of preventing the damage. I should also like to say that there is an administrative agreement between my department and the Ministry of Agriculture that all Schedule 1 birds will be licensable by only the DoE.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: That is not in the Bill, is it? This is an internal agreement?
The Earl of Avon: If I could repeat myself, this is an administrative agreement; an internal agreement. Regarding licensing, my noble friend Lord Home asked whether the NCC could give a licence. I nodded the wrong way at the time. They can give licences. As my noble friend Lord Chelwood mentioned, they have been giving licences for photography and will continue to do so. As one or two noble Lords pointed out, the responsibility rests with the Government no matter which part of it is the licensing authority for any particular purpose. However, we have attempted to give the responsibility to that branch of Government which is best equipped to exercise it. Thus while licences for the photography of birds which are based solely on the scientific judgment has been allocated to the NCC, licences for precautions against spread of disease or the safeguarding of crops will go through the Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food, whereas for all other purposes they will go through the Department of the Environment.
The amount of scientific judgment varies between the purposes listed in the Bill and for example the purpose listed under paragraph (b) of Clause 15(8) are considered basically to involve no scientific decisions. However, for all these purposes—and this is an important point—there is a built-in requirement to consult with the advisory bodies just as now; a procedure which has worked well. Where the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is the licensing authority, the Bill makes provision for consultation with the Secretary of State, and the NCC, and, as I indicated in the Second Reading debate, the final licensing decisions should represent the balanced view of all the relevant interests.
There is no question of anybody being judge and jury. The NCC is there to give all advice. That is their statutory obligation. I hope, bearing in mind these points, and considering the useful debate that we have had, that the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, will appreciate that we have thought the matter through and have done the best to satisfy the conservation interests while balancing it with the procedure which is now happening.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood: I take it that when my noble friend mentioned the Ministry of Agriculture he included the Secretary of State for Scotland, because that is the authority in Scotland.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I must inform the noble Baroness of one fact about which she seems

41
unaware: she has to consult the NCC anyway if she wants to do any works and claim grant aid if the land is an SSSI. Anybody in that position is already in touch. However, that is a detail.
I shall read what the noble Earl has said very carefully. He told me a number of things of which I was not aware. I am not absolutely certain where it leaves me. I do not wish to retreat totally. I have the feeling that when we come to Amendments Nos. 309 and 313, pressing those might have the effect I am trying to produce. I am not sure yet and I must think about it. For the moment, and until the next stage —giving us time to read what the noble Earl said—I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.10 p.m.
Lord Gibson-Watt Lord Gibson-Watt moved Amendment No. 284:
Page 15, line 8, at end insert (" in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State ").
The noble Lord said: In moving my amendment could it be coupled with Amendments 290, 294 and 321, for which the first three amendments are in fact paving amendments? The first three say in various places on this page that the words,
in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State ",
should be inserted. Then they are followed up in Amendment 321, which says:
" Regulations made under this section shall make provision for an appeal against refusal of a grant of a licence by the appropriate authority ".
There are very few things in this country where a seeming injustice may have been brought about by a decision where an appeal cannot be made to some authority or other. It is for that reason that my noble friends and I have put down this amendment. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: I am grateful to my noble friend for speaking to this amendment and perhaps I might also speak to the other three amendments, Nos. 290, 294 and 321. These four related amendments would effectively oblige the Secretary of State to make regulations covering the procedure for the granting of licences for all the purposes listed in Clause 15 of the Bill.
It has never been the Government's intention to make licensing the subject of regulations. I appreciate the reasons why my noble friends have suggested this, but we believe it would be impracticable if not impossible for regulations to be made to cover every individual aspect of licensing. Each application will be different and the Government will have to consider, among other things, the applicant, the species and location, the time and proposed method of executing the activities to be licensed. The flexibility of the whole licensing system, which is illustrated by the list of aspects to consider, would be severely circumscribed by the rigidity of regulations to which licensing authorities would have to adhere. This does not mean that we have any intention of riding roughshod over any discipline or of acting improperly. I can assure my noble friends that we shall do our utmost to ensure that fair play and equal treatment will be given to all under
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the licensing procedures and that all application will be decided on the same basic criteria.
Perhaps I might speak for a moment to Amendment No. 321 regarding the procedure for appeal against refusal to grant a licence. To do this would open the floodgates to a demand for appeals procedure against the issuing of licences for all manner of purposes. As in all administrative processes, the first round of appeal is to the licensing authority to reconsider its decision. This recourse has been open in the past and there have been several instances when they have been considered two or even three times. There are also cases when an initial decision has been reversed in the light of fresh information having been presented. Thereafter the powers of appeal, as now, lead a disappointed applicant to his Member of Parliament or to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration. The Government are satisfied that the system already in existence gives adequate safeguards to applicants for licences and ensures that there is recourse for those who are refused licences. I am equally convinced that there is nothing to be gained from enshrining this in the present legislation. I very much hope that, with these assurances, my noble friends may feel able to withdraw their amendment.
The Earl of Onslow: As the noble Earl has said, I think quite rightly, that he does not like regulations but has indicated that he will talk about possible guidelines, would it be possible to publish those guidelines or let it be known what the criteria are—I think "criteria" was the word used. I am not quite sure of the difference between criteria and guidelines, but they are probably the same. Could the criteria be published?—because if they were I think it could save a lot of time for the licensing authorities by cutting down the number of frivolous applications for licenses and it would also stop the application for licences by people who have no hope of getting them.
The Earl of Avon: I thank my noble friend for that intervention. I did actually refer to "aspects to consider" illustrated in this section; but I think that the Nature Conservancy Council might well wish to consider the idea of publishing certain of the basic criteria; and perhaps we might leave that to them to consider.
Lord Gibson-Watt: I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Avon for what he has said, and particularly with regard to a re-application to a licensing authority to review its decision. In the circumstances I see that it is a little difficult for a Minister himself to be the court of appeal for his own department. In view of what has been said on behalf of the Government—and I am grateful for the explanation of the position—I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 285 to 290 not moved.]
5.16 p.m.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby Lord Houghton of Sowerby moved Amendment No. 291:
Page 15, line 26, at end insert—
(" ( ) The appropriate authority shall issue a licence only if the person applying for a licence satisfies them that the purpose

43
of the issue of the licence cannot be achieved otherwise than by the issue of the licence.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is intended to strengthen the conditions under which licences would be issued for certain purposes. I want to refer first of all to the EEC Directive on the Conservation of Wild Birds. Article 9 allows for derogations from the provisions of Articles 5, 6, 7 and 8, which deal with the protection of birds—
"where there is no other satisfactory solution for the following reasons "—
and then the reasons for which they need to be satisfied that there is "no other satisfactory solution" but the granting of a licence relate to the interests of public health and safety, the interests of air safety, damage to crops and so forth. Those are the ones one would expect where satisfaction should be given that there is "no other satisfactory solution ".
Similarly, the Council of Europe Convention on the Conservation of European Wildlife and Natural Habitats has an article in almost identical words. Article 9 of that convention allows for exceptions to be made to the provisions of Articles 4, 5, 6 and 7 which provide protection,
" provided there is no other satisfactory solution "—
and again for purposes under the convention similar to those specified for the EEC directive. We do not have in this Bill so far words of that definite kind,
" where there is no other satisfactory solution ".
What we do have is something a little milder than that, and, of course, we have the assurances of the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, on what would be the Government's policy in the granting of licences. However, it would be better to include something in the Bill which is a little stronger, rather than to rely entirely on a description of how the licences would be granted. It has been suggested to me that an alternative to this amendment—a little weaker but more in line with what the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, said—would be as follows:
" Page 15, after subsection (2) insert the following new clause—
' Before issuing an licence in respect of subsections (1)(k) and (1)(l) or subsections (2)(g) and (2)(h), the appropriate authority shall take account of the availability of alternative methods of control '.".
That might suit the Government better than the EEC directive and the Council of Europe convention. However, I hope that they will opt for the stronger alternative. But I keep the second, weaker version in reserve, in case I have to fall back on it at some sub-sequent stage.
All in all, the exceptions, the licences, the conditions of granting licences and the purposes for which licences are to be granted, worry me a great deal because, very often, these exceptions weaken the whole structure and purpose of legislation. I have seen so much of it in the statute law in my time in the hands of slack administration, or indulgence which was never intended at the time of passing the statute law, and I have seen the weakening of what was the original intention of providing some definite protection. That is why I feel it is quite reasonable to be pressing all the time against the possibility that licences, and the conditions for the
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granting of licences, may err on the side of generosity to those who seek to have them.
This amendment has a perfectly reasonable pedigree. After all, it is in line with the EEC directive, to which the Government should pay some regard. It is also in line with the Convention of the Council of Europe, to which the Government should also pay some regard. The two together add up to support for this amendment, and I sincerely hope that the noble Earl will have something favourable to say about it. I beg to move.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: I do not suppose the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, will be surprised if I say that I am not very keen about this amendment. It would, as he knows, cause considerable delay and, by the time we received our licence—if we did—the damage would be done. I would just draw the Committee's attention to the words:
" the licence cannot be achieved otherwise ".
It is not very often that I feel sorry for civil servants, but I would feel very sorry for them if they were trying to interpret that phrase, particularly if they felt that the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, was on one shoulder and I was on the other. It is asking a lot of them, although I know that we do ask a lot of them. But I really cannot support this amendment.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I do not feel terribly strongly about this amendment. I am entirely in agreement with what is in my noble friend's mind. In other words, if in considering the protection of crops against any kind of reserved animal there is a better way than giving permission to shoot it, then clearly a licence should not be given. That is common sense. I should have thought that the licensor would observe this anyway, but I should like to hear what the Government have to say.
The Earl of Avon: I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson. One is entirely sympathetic to the amendment. My main argument would be that it is rather unnecessary. I should like to open by saying that, of course, we understand the requirements of the European Community's directive and, indeed, have to comply with it and will do so. This amendment seeks to impose the specific requirement that an applicant for a licence shall satisfy the licence issuing authority of the need for its issue. But if we think of this deeply, the amendment is unnecessary as the licence-issuing authority responsible will not issue a licence if it is not required. In any case, it would be totally wrong to place the onus on the applicant who would not necessarily be aware of other alternative methods. The licence-issuing authority will have this information, and will advise the applicant on the use of these other methods before issuing the licence. I hope that that rather brief explanation may satisfy the noble Lord.
Lord Melchett: I am afraid that the noble Earl has not satisfied me. I was delighted to hear his reiteration of the Government's support for the EEC directive, and the fact that they will comply with it—as, indeed, under international law they have to do. He said that a licensing authority would not issue a licence if it was not required, but the EEC directive states that if there is no other satisfactory solution a licence should not be issued.

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This may be a semantic point, but it seems to me that it would answer some of the worries that have been expressed about the licensing provisions in this Bill, if the words of the EEC directive—and the Government have been quite happy to import them into other clauses of the Bill, where it suited those interested in protecting agriculture and other things; and we made no complaint about that at the time—were imported into this part of the Bill. The words in Article 9 are that member States may derogate from the provisions of the directive where there is no other satisfactory solution. I should have thought that if those words appeared in the Bill, we could all be absolutely assured that we would stick to the EEC directive.
The Earl of Avon: Yes, I take the noble Lord's point. But I honestly think that the licence-issuing authority will have the information and will therefore advise the applicant on the use of other methods. I am rather back to front with the noble Lord on this amendment, but I will find out why we have not used the exact words and will have another look at it.
Lord Melchett: That would be helpful, because the noble Earl will find that a number of words from Article 9 have been incorporated into the Bill and, by the nature of things, it will arouse some suspicion if three or four words which look good from the conservationists' point of view are left out of the Bill, when all the words which look bad, about preventing damage to crops and so on, are put in. So it would be helpful if the Government would look at the point again, and I am grateful to the noble Earl for saying that he will do so.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: I am always upset when the noble Lord, Lord Stanley of Alderley, is not on my side. That weakens my position greatly. My reply to the noble Earl is that I imagine that those who have crops, livestock, or other property, which may be exposed to the depredations of species that might otherwise have the protection of the Bill, will no doubt ascertain from the appropriate authorities beforehand what kind of situation will arise if their expected enemies fly over or settle on their land in large flocks and begin to gobble up the winter-sown wheat and so on. I do not think that farmers and others will apply for licences out of the blue, if some unexpected catastrophe or threat befalls them. On the whole, they will know what is likely to come their way.
However, I shall not delay the Committee any more. I shall be interested to know in due course why the words chosen were not those of either the EEC directive or the Council of Europe convention. Where we are dealing in words, we naturally like to rely on words which are of general application in a directive of this kind. It may be that there are alternatives to the words used in conventions, but it is better to stick to them if they mean sense to us and, in this case, the words of the directive do. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment and, probably, will hear a little more about this at a later stage of the Bill.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 292 to 295 not moved.]
5.29 p.m.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge moved Amendment No. 296:
Page 15, line 31, leave out paragraph (a) and insert ("(a) shall be specifie; ").
The noble Lord said: I referred earlier to the fact that I should be moving some amendments on the specificity, as opposed to the generality, of licences and, with the permission of the Committee, I should like to discuss Amendments Nos. 295, 296, 297, 299, 300, 301 and 306, all of which apply to the same point.
The Earl of Avon: I did not hear the consequential numbers. However, the noble Lord mentioned Amendment No. 295, which has been withdrawn.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I am at fault. I meant to mention Amendment No. 296, which has not been withdrawn. I apologise to the Committee. That is the first amendment which I am pinning this group on to. Noble Lords know the general point which I am trying to make but I want to go into it in some detail. The licensing provisions contained in the Bill are wide. They differ in a number of respects from the arrangements contained in the existing Protection of Birds Acts with which, on the whole, we have been fairly satisfied. To begin with, the Bill enables licences to be granted to kill or take any wild bird in order to prevent serious damage to crops, property, et cetera. This will also apply to creatures otherwise protected in Clauses 9 to 12. This is an innovation of a derogatory kind from the point of view of the protected animal which we have got to look at very carefully.
My reaction was to turn to the existing arrangements under the Protection of Birds Acts to see how we have coped with the problem, if it existed, in the past. I have found that Section 4(2)(a) of the old Act provides a defence for persons suffering serious damage or wishing to prevent serious damage to crops, property and so forth to take action against protected birds other than those in Schedule I, which are the rare species. However, anybody who uses the defence provided in this section must, if challenged, be prepared to show in a court of law that his action was necessary. In other words, a farmer or other person suffering damage must think before he reaches for his gun, but not so long as to see his crop disappear. On the whole, this has been a reasonable, self-policing system. The new proposals, though they are not yet perfect, provide a framework upon which I hope and think we can build to produce a fair, workable and reasonable system.
One might have thought that the organisation which I have had reason to quote several times in these debates, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, would be hostile in their response to this principle of new licensing proposals. That is not the case. They tell me that in their response to the Government's consultations they supported a licensing system. They said that they had for a long time suggested, indeed promoted the idea of a licensing system to cater for species causing serious damage. However, they qualified their comments with two important provisos, with which I agree.
The first is that licences should be granted on an individual basis, and only on an individual basis,

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each case being judged on its merits and clearly in relation to the seriousness and extent of the damage sustained or anticipated. The second is that the administration of any licensing system should be carried out at least on the direct advice of the Nature Conservancy Council. We have already discussed whether the Nature Conservancy Council should issue the licence. The noble Earl has said that he cannot arrange that. But at least it must be on their advice. We need to be very careful about the two provisos.
The point of the Bill is to protect wildlife. We must keep a reasonable balance between the commercial man and wildlife itself. In the alleviation of damage, or potential damage to crops or property one must certainly consider the wise and judicious use of deterrents, or wise husbandry, to prevent damage. Allowing somebody to shoot the offending protected species is only a very small part of the answer, and a last resort answer at that. In a sense, this emphasises the last amendment which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby. It is most important that the licensing-administering body should have advice available on the deterrents to prevent damage. Only if these have been tried and have failed and the likelihood of serious damage has been demonstrated should a licence to kill birds be issued.
This sounds much more difficult than it is. Most farmers always do this first before they go for a licence —and if they do not they ought to. So they ought to be able to telephone the regional office, or whoever gives the licence, and say, "I have done this and I have done that, but I cannot get rid of them. I now want a licence to use one of the derogated methods ". I cannot see any problem about this. I think that the noble Earl will say that this is the position. If so, I shall be relieved.
That being so, let me repeat what I said earlier: I see no justification whatever for the issue of general licences. Clause 15(4) states that a licence may be, to any degree, general or specific and that it may be granted either to all persons, to persons of a class or to a particular person. My amendments say, first, that it must be specific and, secondly, that it must be to a person. There are a number of consequentials. However, that is the important point.
Under the Bill as it stands, the licensing authority would have the power to grant a licence to all of the farmers in Southern England to take action against brent geese—and furthermore, indefinitely. This is exactly the kind of thing which would save trouble for farmers but which from the conservation point of view is not acceptable. It is absolutely reasonable that if there were a plague of brent geese in a certain crop area a special licence should be given to one, two, three or half a dozen people. That is quite different from a general licence being given to kill brent geese north of the Humber. It is a very extreme result and one which we must oppose.
To give an example, a general licence to allow herons to be destroyed at fish farms would remove from fish farmers the onus to design their farms in such a way as to minimise heron damage. There is a great deal of information on how to do this. If you were foolish enough to grant a general licence, nobody would then take the trouble to do that. A general
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licence would be very little different from placing the bird in Part II of Schedule 2. Those are the species which may be killed or taken at any time—the pest list for the said area. It could be worse, for at least those species are stated clearly in the Bill. If general licences were granted, how would enforcement authorities or the general public know if the bird was the subject of a general licence, or what were the conditions of such a licence?
I do not want to flog the case. What I am driving at is fairly clear. However, I cannot understand how with such a loose arrangement, the Government believe that they can fulfil their obligations under Article 9 of the EEC directive. My amendments would allow the issue of licences where damage has occurred or is likely to occur. Nobody can object to that. General licences would not be issued and the conditions laid down in Article 9 of the directive would be adequately covered. I have said sufficient to show what is in our minds. There may be a middle course between my objections and what is contained in the Bill. I shall be glad to hear whether the noble Earl has anything to add. I beg to move.
5.40 p.m.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: I am surprised at what the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, has said. This is a question of principle. The trouble with the noble Lord is that he has no trust whatsoever in anybody. These licences will be granted by a licensing authority. I happen to have enough faith to think that licences will be granted only in reasonable cases. There are going to be cases when the licence will have to be general. May I quote an extreme example, as did the noble Lord. There would be need for a general licence in Anglesey against greylag geese.
I will make only one other point because I hope other noble Lords will support me on this. The noble Lord said "Indefinitely granted" but I do not see that. The licence could be granted for a day or a week or two months, but I do ask the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, to have a little more trust. I am sure we should then all get on much better.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I do not see how we could get on better. I do not trust people whose commercial interests are affected. I have never found them to be trustworthy in any way. They look after themselves and not the other man. This is not the Christian doctrine but it is adopted by everybody I know, Christians or otherwise. I would even say socialists or otherwise and we may as well expect no more. Really, the whole of this clause shows lack of trust; it is derogating certain things to which Clauses 1 to 8 will not apply. One might as well say, There is no point in putting this down; let the licensing people do as they think fit ". The greylag goose in Anglesey is a very good example. I do not believe for one moment that if you wish to protect Angelsey crops at a certain period from the greylag goose it is necessary to do it for the whole of Anglesey. I do not know how many farms there are in Anglesey but it cannot be a large number. I know the area fairly well and I should have thought it would have been possible to have individual licences for a fortnight when the crop was

49
ripe, or whatever might be the appropriate period, and that is exactly what my amendments would make possible.
The Earl of Caithness: I cannot follow the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, at all in his argument because if we read the whole of subsection (4), and in particular paragraphs (c), (d) and (e), we find that it seems to take account of everything that he is concerned about. The licence, although general, could have specific conditions attached to it. It could be modified or revoked at any time by the appropriate authority and it could be valid for a limited period of time, so what is he concerned about?
Lord Melchett: The noble Lord, Lord Stanley of Alderley, and others have suggested that there is not much to worry about and that we all ought to trust each other. Of course, we do, but nevertheless, having done that we are still concerned about the intentions of the Government and others if this power to grant general licences is retained in the Bill. I think my noble friend dealt effectively with the one example which we have been given so far of the need for general licences; the other example which the NFU have actually given their own members is that under the Bill they are assured that there would be a general licence issued to everybody in South-East England to kill brent geese whenever they need to. That has been published by the NFU and it is apparently an assurance which they have been given. That is a general licence to cover all brent geese anywhere in southern England at any time they want to kill them. That is an appalling state of affairs. That is why there is some suspicion, worry and doubt about this provision in the Bill.
We had a long discussion in this Committee about brent geese and whether they needed the protection which they are given under the Bill. The amendment which suggested that they did not was withdrawn, with Government support against it, and now this provision simply makes the whole of that discussion worthless. What was the point of it if the NFU have already been guaranteed a general licence to kill brent geese in South-East England? That is why we are worried about the provision.
The Earl of Caithness: But if the Nature Conservancy Council says to the Secretary of State, "The farmers are disobeying the conditions of the general licence" surely the Secretary of State would merely revoke the licence.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I would rather play it the other way round.
The Earl of Avon: I think it really is a case of which way round we play this particular one. The noble Lord mentioned herons and if I may take that as a specific point of the policy on licences for each species, it is the intention that it will be worked out with the NCC, with MAFF and with my department and for herons it is expected that licences will be granted to individual fish farmers and only when other types of deterrent have already failed.
To answer the other point put by the noble Lord opposite there has been absolutely no guarantee to the
50
NFU about brent geese. Licences for brent geese are under discussion and if they are considered it would probably only be to individual farmers who are affected and it would not be an umbrella licence.
The idea behind this paragraph is flexibility, as noble Lords know perfectly well and the amendment tabled would make specific licences necessary in cases where the Government think that it is not justified. I think the great safeguard is the duty which is there to report annually to the Commission on the derogations authorised under Article 9 of the British birds directive, which would mean that the Government would have to justify the licences issued. Equally I should like to ask the noble Lord who proposed the amendment to give some idea of how we get round the general licences which we arc thinking of. For instance, if there were some pest birds in Schedule 2, Part II, and one wanted to cover them in a particular county, or something of that nature, also gulls' eggs, which have been mentioned, and fruit farmers in connection with which bullfinches have come up in our discussions on other occasions—how are we going to cover these if we cannot use a general licence? This is why the Government do not want to be tied down to the word "specific".
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I do not myself see the difficulty. If we take fruit farming, for example, it is entirely in areas; it is usually a matter of under 30 farmers over a very large area, not all of whom grow the same fruit. I should have thought the bullfinch was admirably suited to a specific licence to be issued to a specific farmer on a specific farm. I think they would want to get it extremely quickly, and that is one of the reasons why I am sorry that my suggestion about the regional offices of the Nature Conservancy Council has not been accepted. I do not see a problem here at all. I do not understand why the noble Earl, having said that he would be specific in his opinion at this stage in regard to brent geese in the South of England and would not want to issue a general licence, should want to be able to issue a general licence in other cases. I do not believe that is necessary.
The Earl of Cranbrook: The discussion so far has concentrated entirely on birds, but if I am not mistaken we are also concerned with other animals, including those which are in Schedule 5. We know that the red squirrel has been added to Schedule 5 and the schedule already contains seriously threatened mammals and other vertebrates and invertebrates. May I seek assurances, for the record, that the licensing system will be equally particular where it is applied to non-bird species?
The Earl of Avon: Yes, if the noble Earl considers a general licence to be particular, it will.
Lord Melchett: I do not know whether the noble Earl, Lord Cranbrook, is satisfied with that but it seems to me to be the exact opposite to the assurance he was seeking. Of course, that is the problem. If we have this particular form of words in the Bill we are obviously going to use it and the examples given by the Government all seem to me to be perfectly good places where a specific licence could be issued. In the

51
case of a fruit farm, most people who are growing soft fruit which is liable to suffer damage from bullfinches will know in advance when there is a risk to the fruit. Farmers are not stupid in that way and they will be able to apply in plenty of time. The Bill already allows one to apply for a licence if damage is anticipated. It does not have to have occurred or to be occurring; all that one has to show is that it is likely to happen in the future.
I do not think that the Government, in sticking to this extraordinarily general and unqualified form of words, can seriously put forward the case that they are sticking to the EEC directive. In Article 9(2) the directive says that the derogations (which is what this licensing procedure is) must specify the conditions of risk and the circumstances of time and place under which such derogations may be granted. It semed to me that the noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, to some extent recognised this in his Second Reading speech when he said that it was misleading to think of a general licence allowing anybody to kill anything of a certain species in a certain area, which was certainly how the NFU had viewed the possibility of getting licences to kill brent geese. The noble Earl has reassured us on that. The noble Lord, Lord Bellwin, at Second Reading, said:
" The licence will be limited to that group of people and will be specific as to the species to be killed, the period of time, the area of the country and the purpose and method of killing for which it is valid ".—[Official Report, 16/12/80; col. 984]
It seems to me that in that there may be the possibility of a compromise. If the noble Earl is saying that that is what a general licence means, would it be possible to put Lord Bellwin's words in the Bill? Then we would not be worried about the blanket licences which run for any period of time, apply to any number of people for any reason whatsoever, for anybody to kill anything they want to kill.
The Earl of Avon: I was getting perturbed that the specific licence was almost reaching my general licence. Obviously we want to retain the word "general". I take the point made by the other side. I do not think I can say that I am going to consider it again, but I shall read in detail what has been said and see if we can get a little closer, because we are very close on this.
Lord Melchett: I would not like the noble Earl to read what I said, but if he could read what his noble friend Lord Bellwin said at Second Reading and see if those sentiments could be incorporated into this clause in qualifying the word "general", I think that would go a long way to meeting the worries that have been expressed in this connection.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: With that particular assurance which I think has been granted, that at least the noble Earl will look at what his colleague said, it seems to me that if those words could be added to the definition of "general" we should be fully satisfied. In any case, I am happy to withdraw the amendment until such time as we have an opportunity to hear what the noble Earl's conclusions are.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Wootton of Abinger)The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Wootton of Abinger): I have to point out that if Amendment No. 297 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 298.
[Amendments Nos. 297 to 302 not moved.]
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I have to point out that if Amendment No. 303 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 304 or 305.
5.53 p.m.
The Earl of Caithness The Earl of Caithness moved Amendment No. 303:
Page 15, leave out lines 40 and 41.
The noble Earl said: It seems to me rather peculiar that a charge is going to be required by the appropriate licensing authority. This amendment is a probing amendment; I should like the Government to explain their view on this matter a little further. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: It is the Government's policy to ensure that they are not inhibited by law from making charges for issue which place additional costs on all taxpayers for the benefit of a few where such charges are appropriate. This provision does not itself mean that licence fees will necessarily be levied but it is considered essential that the Government should not be restricted in their ability to do so.
This is rather a brief answer, as I was expecting to have a rather longer discussion on this subject. My noble friend said that this was a probing amendment and I am not quite sure in which direction he wishes to probe. If I have not given a sufficient answer perhaps he could explain further.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: If the noble Earl wants further discussion far be it for me to deny him. I thought the opposite was the general direction required. I would only say that it is the normal thing in the social services or anything of that kind—agriculture, for instance—that if you are going to ask for a grant you should pay the necessary expense of getting it, and I see no objection to it at all.
The Earl of Caithness: What I was trying to get from the Government was whether they have any proposals at the moment for making a charge, and if so how much? If they make the charge, will this delay the granting of a licence?—because as we discussed earlier, this could be a critical question of timing for the farmer.
The Earl of Avon: I thank my noble friend for clarifying the point. This matter is under discussion at the moment. I will make sure his point about timing is fed into the discussion if it is not already there.
The Earl of Caithness: I am grateful to my noble friend for that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 304 not moved.]
Lord Gibson-Watt Lord Gibson-Watt moved Amendment No. 305:
Page 15, line 41, at end insert—
(" Provided that no such charge shall be made in respect of the grant of a licence—

53

(a) for the purpose of preserving public health or public or air safety;

(b) for the purpose of preventing the spread of disease; or

(c) for the purpose of preventing serious damage to livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber or any other form of property or to fisheries.").

The noble Lord said: My noble friends and I who have put this amendment down really think it is a bit much that when people are asking for and getting a licence for the specific purposes under (a), (b) and (c), they should then have to pay for the licence. Are we honestly saying that if a fish farmer is plagued with herons and gets a licence he has got to pay for getting rid of half a dozen herons? Are we honestly saying that if a fruit farmer is bedevilled by bullfinches he should equally have to pay? I really think those concerned with this Bill are going to have quite enough time and trouble understanding the Bill, a point made earlier on Second Reading by my noble friend Lord Margadale. I think it is outrageous that they should have to pay for a licence. We all of us as taxpayers pay for having these various people working in the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of the Environment so that they can do just this sort of thing. I really think it is too much that private individuals should have to pay for this type of thing. I beg to move.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I do not want to get involved in this because it is between two Members on the same side of the Committee. I would only like to say that if something costs money to do and is for your benefit there is absolutely no reason why you should not pay for it.
The Earl of Caithness: Is it not for the benefit of the consumer, because the farmer is producing crops and if those crops are under attack it means the price of food might go up.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: If he does not get a licence, he will not be allowed to protect them under this Bill.
The Earl of Avon: I hope my noble friends will be satisfied with the same answer as I gave to the previous amendment. This matter is at the moment under discussion. I have been reading the documents which have so far been produced, and I have not seen a suggestion on the lines of my noble friend's. I will make sure that these suggestions are brought to the attention of the appropriate people and undertake that we do look at this.
Lord Gibson-Watt: With that assurance, I shall be glad to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: If Amendment No. 306 is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 307.
[Amendment No. 306 not moved.]
Lord Gibson-Watt Lord Gibson-Watt moved Amendment No. 307:
Page 16, leave out lines 22 and 23.
The noble Lord said: This is only to say that I do not believe that if a licence is given to a person it
54
should automatically be given to other persons at the same time. I am being rather specific about this. With those few words I beg to move.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: May I say how grateful I am for the noble Lord's support?
The Earl of Avon: We have already spoken to this subject in some detail. This amendment relates to, and seeks to delete, one of the aspects designed to achieve flexibility in the system—the proposal that a licence may be issued to enable a person to authorise others to undertake the activity specified in the licence. I can assure your Lordships that we do not intend to use this power to do some of the more extreme things which have been bandied about. As I said, it is designed to give an extra flexibility to the system. If I may give an example, we might wish to make an arrangement whereby the British Trust for Ornithology could authorise its qualified members to ring birds. The alternative to this would be a welter of individual applications, with all the attendant bureaucracy. That is not, of course, what we want and, with that in mind, I hope that I have said enough to persuade my noble friends that the Government really would rather like to keep this in the Bill.
Lord Gibson-Watt: I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge. I think that it was he who was supporting me and I shall naturally look forward for a quid pro quo later in the Bill. However, I am very glad to accept what my noble friend has said and that the Government have a strong view upon this matter. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees The Deputy Chairman of Committees: The next amendment is No. 308. I must draw to the Committees' attention that if Amendment No. 308 is agreed to I shall not be able to call Amendments Nos. 309, 312, 313 or 314.
[Amendment No. 308 not moved.]
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 309:
Page 16, line 25, leave out from ("under") to ("(1)" in line 26 and insert ("paragraphs (a) to (i), (k) and (l) and under paragraphs (g) or (h) of subsection (2)").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 309. With this amendment, I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 312 and 313, and also Amendment No. 315, because they all go together. The purpose of these amendments is try to simplify the definition of "the appropriate authority" very much along the lines the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, suggested when we had an earlier debate about making the Nature Conservancy Council the appropriate authority throughout these licensing provisions.
This series of amendments does not go that far, but what it does do is to seek to make the Secretary of State for the Environment, or, in Scotland, the Secretary of State for Scotland, the licensing authority with advice from whichever of the advisory bodies the Secretary of State sees fit to consult, or from the Nature Conservancy Council. That is the wording

55
in Subsection (8)(a) on page 16 of the Bill. It removes the licensing power from the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.
It seems to us that, even if the Government are not prepared to go as far as making the Nature Conservancy Council the licensing authority for all purposes under the Bill, there are some very strong arguments in favour of some rationalisation and simplification as to which is actually the appropriate authority; and that, as I think more than one noble Lord opposite said in our previous debate, the Secretary of State for the Environment would by and large be seen as holding the ring in a fairly fair way between the competing interests of agriculture and conservation—and there are, of course, competing interests here. There is the economic interest of the farming community and the interest of those who wish to protect very rare species, whether birds or other things listed in the Bill, from being killed. Those who wish to see them protected wish to see them protected even if they do cause some damage, and those who are farming wish to see them killed even if they are very rare. There is a serious conflict of interest which I do not think any of us ought to hide or be ashamed of. It is a perfectly natural and respectable conflict of interest. But, given that, it does seem to some people involved in the conflict a little unfair that, as it were, the main protagonist for one side should be in the business of issuing licences for these very rare and protected species to be killed if they are causing the sort of damage set out in subsection (2)(h) on page 15.
The Secretary of State for the Environment, with advice from various bodies, as I understand it, has always provided a perfectly satisfactory service as regards issuing licences in the past. Whether we tighten up the wording of the general licences or not—whatever we decide about that—it would nevertheless be the case that under this Bill there would be far more licences issued for far more purposes than has been the case in the past. I would suggest to the Government that we run the risk of opening up an enormous area of conflict and controversy with the Bill, unless the people making the decisions arc seen to be reasonably fair and impartial to both sides of the conflict.
That is not the case under the Bill at present. The Ministry of Agriculture quite rightly and properly is seen a acting entirely in defence of agricultural interests. I am very glad, as a farmer, that they do that, and I would not wish them to do anything else. But, in those circumstances, I do not think that it is fair to them or to anyone else to see them issuing licences for the destruction of very rare birds, simply on their own say-so, as is currently the case under subsection (8)(d). Therefore, I hope that these amendments will be accepted by the Government. I beg to move.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: I do not suppose that the noble Lord Lord Melchett will be surprised if I say that I do not think that the amendment is a very good idea. In my view, the Ministry of Agriculture are the best people to look at this problem with regard to pests. I think that if—
Lord Melchett: I interrupt the noble Lord to say that we are not talking about pests: we are talking about
56
the most endangered and rarest birds and animals that we have in this country.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: The point is taken, but on these particular occasions they will only be able to be destroyed if they cause a nuisance. I think that the noble Lord has taken that point. In my view, the Ministry of Agriculture are the best people to deal with this matter. If it is given to the Secretary of State and the Department of the Environment, it must be remembered that they are not really involved with crops and I can foresee that the first thing that they would have to do is to rush round from Marsham Street to Horseferry Road to find out what was happening. I do not think that that is a particularly good idea. It takes time and adds bureaucracy.
Lord Melchett: I do not want to keep jumping up and interrupting the noble Lord, but is he implying something which I find very worrying and an example of the lack of even-handedness, if I may say so, of the noble Lord's approach; namely, that the Minister of Agriculture will not consult the Department of the Environment or the Nature Conservancy Council? Whoever does the consulting, the same distance has to be travelled.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: The noble Lord is trying to tie me up and he is very welcome to do so. Let us face it, the first people that they would go to is the Nature Conservancy Council and not necessarily the Secretary of State. I think that the Nature Conservancy Council must be the first people. Indeed, they are duty bound to consult them.
Lord Melchett: No, they are not.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: They would do so. The noble Lord is interpreting me wrongly in thinking that if it were a rare animal they would not consult. It says "shall" consult. If there is a rare bird that is harming crops no responsible official of the Ministry of Agriculture is not going to consult the Nature Conservancy Council—of course, he will do so.
I shall make my final point, which I am sure will annoy the noble Lord, Lord Melchett. Farmers know their Ministry of Agriculture office better than they do their Department of the Environment office. They are much more likely to go to the Ministry of Agriculture office. I am not saying that farmers would break the law, but I think that there might be a tendency, if they had to go off to their Department of the Environment office, not to ask. Furthermore, if a farmer goes to the Ministry of Agriculture—and we come down to a principle here and says, "I want a licence for this", I truly believe that the man there—whether it be an ADAS man or whoever—will say to him, "Look here do you really need to kill this bird? Do you realise that there are only 24 in the country?", and the farmer will listen. I am doubtful about him listening to the Department of the Environment. However, I shall not go on about that. I have been in trouble in this House previously over the Department of the Environment.
The Earl of Avon: I congratulate the noble Lord

57
opposite for making what really is an excellent speech on a subject which I think we have been over once before, and for putting forward such novel views. I think that right at the beginning I must emphasise that the Government feel that it is entirely right and proper that the Ministry of Agriculture should have a responsibility for licensing which is connected with serious damage to crops.
The Government have endeavoured to give the responsibilities for licensing to the Government departments best equipped to exercise them. That is our ploy. The Bill makes provisions, as I have said previously, for consultations between the Secretary of State, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and the advisory bodies to be set up under Clause 21. As I indicated during the Second Reading debate, the final licensing decisions should represent the balanced view of all the relevant interests, and this will, I submit, meet the objectives of the noble Lord and the noble Baroness who have moved this amendment. I do not think that I can say any more without going over ground which I have already covered.
Lord Melchett: I think that it is a slightly different point to want to have the Nature Conservancy Council as the licensing authority throughout the Bill and simply to want to transfer the responsibility under two of the paragraphs in subsection (8) from the Ministry of Agriculture to the Secretary of State for the Environment. It was an attempt to meet some of the noble Earl's objections to the earlier amendment.
The Earl of Avon: I am sorry, but I forgot to say anything about the NCC. As noble Lords know, we have given the NCC one factor on which to do their licensing. I understood from what my noble friend Lord Chelwood said that the NCC could not cope with the licensing of all this.
Lord Melchett: That is exactly why I moved this series of amendments, which does not put any further burdens on the NCC, but which asks the DoE to do this, having listened the MAFF on the one hand and the NCC, or whatever advisory body it would be, on the other.
A serious point arises here. I do not think that the Government are being fair, and they are certainly not being seen to be fair. The NFU and the farmers may be very happy with the proposals that are contained in this clause; indeed, they are. In fact, they say that they can accept the Bill to the extent that we have debated it so far because of the new licensing system introduced in the Bill. The NFU goes on to say:
" The new system allows the Ministry of Agriculture to grant licences which could override many of the prohibitive measures in the Bill".
In fact, it could probably override almost all of them. Anyhow, the NFU is being modest about this and says that the new system could simply override many of them. It goes on:
" The licences may be general or specific, as deemed appropriate ".
It goes on to give examples.
" A farmer could therefore be given a licence to use poisoned baits or any other prohibited methods, provided that he could
58
put a case to the Ministry (that is, the MAFF) proving his need to use such a method. Equally, any farmer could seek a licence to kill or control any of the protected species, provided that he could prove to the Ministry (that is, the MAFF) that the birds or mammals in question were, or were about to be, a pest in his particular locality ".
The NFU publication goes on to say:
" If necessary, the licences can be issued to all farmers within a certain region ",
which I have mentioned before.
" As an example, it is anticipated that a general licence will be given to all farmers in the south-eastern counties to control brent geese ".
It is on the basis of statements of that sort and the feeling that has been around since the consultation on this Bill began that there has been a good deal of giving of nods and winks by the MAFF to certain people who are interested in the Bill about what they will do once they get these licensing powers, that the suspicions have been mainly aroused.
The Government must hold themselves responsible for that. Quite clearly, they could meet this point by allowing someone who is evenhanded and not seen to be biased by either side, to have the power to grant the licences. That would be the Secretary of State for the Department of the Environment who, after all, is a Member of the Government and who is as bound by the advice of the MAFF as he is by the advice of any other Civil Service department. If the Government are not prepared to accept that, it seems to me that they are bound to be accused of unfairness and partiality, and I do not think that it would be a good thing to leave this in the Bill.
The Earl of Avon: I have said before that the Government are the Government and, therefore, speak for both the Department of the Environment and the Ministry of Agriculture. Therefore, we say that we speak with one voice. I have also said that the NCC is the advisory body for both the MAFF and the DoE. The Government will take advice from all three bodies at all times. I do not think that I can go further than that. We have great faith in our Ministry of Agriculture.
6.14 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 309) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 56; Not-Contents, 85.

CONTENTS

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Goronwy-Roberts, L.

Bernstein, L.

Greenwood of Rossendale, L.

Blease, L.

Hale, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Hampton, L.

Brockway, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Howie of Troon, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Jacques, L.

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Jeger, B.

Collison, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

David, B. [Teller.]

Listowel, E.

Davies of Leek, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller]

Diamond, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Donnet of Balgay, L.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Elwyn-Jones, L.

McCarthy, L.

Foot, L.

McGregor of Durris, L.

59

Melchett, L.

Stedman, B.

Milner of Leeds, L.

Stone, L.

Noel-Baker, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Ogmore, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Oram, L.

Underhill, L.

Peart, L.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Phillips, B.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

White, B.

Seear, B.

Wigoder, L.

Sefton of Garston, L.

Winstanley, L.

Segal, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Shepherd, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Lauderdale, E.

Allerton, L.

Long, V.

Avon, E.

Lonsdale, E.

Balerno, L.

Loudoun, C.

Bathurst, E.

Lyell, L.

Bessborough, E.

McFadzean, L.

Caithness, E.

Mancroft, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Margadale, L.

Cathcart, E.

Marley, L.

Chorley, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Cockfield, L.

Middleton, L.

Colwyn, L.

Mills, V.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Dacre of Glanton, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Daventry, V.

Newall, L.

de Clifford, L.

Northchurch, B.

De La Warr, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

De L'Isle, V.

Onslow, E.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Orkney, E.

Drumalbyn, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Dundee, E.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Ellenborough, L.

Saint Oswald, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Sandford, L.

Ferrers, E.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Fortescue, E.

Savile, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Seebohm, L.

Gainford, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Gibson-Watt, L.

Soames, L.

Gisborough, L.

Spens, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Stradbroke, E.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Swansea, L.

Halifax, E.

Swinfen, L.

Hanworth, V.

Tanlaw, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Terrington, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Thurso, V.

Inglewood, L.

Trumpington, B.

Ironside, L.

Tryon, L.

Keyes, L.

Vickers, B.

Killearn, L.

Vivian, L.

Kimberley, E.

Wise, L.

Kinloss, Ly.

Yarborough, E.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
[Amendments Nos. 310 to 313 not moved.]
6.22 p.m.
The Earl of Avon The Earl of Avon moved Amendment No. 314:
Page 16, line 37, after (" paragraph ") insert ("(jj,),").
The noble Earl said: This is consequential. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 315 to 318 not moved.]
The Earl of Avon The Earl of Avon: moved Amendment No. 319:
Page 17, line 3, after (" subsection (1) ") insert (" ( jj),").
The noble Earl said: This amendment also is consequential. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby Lord Houghton of Sowerby moved Amendment No. 320:
Page 17, line 3, at end insert (" and subsection (2)(g) and (h)").
The noble Lord said: This amendment aims at correcting what appears to be an anomaly as between action that has to be taken in relation to birds and action that has to be taken in relation to mammals. The subsection requires the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Secretary of State to consult an advisory body with regard to the issue of licences for killing or taking birds
" for the purpose of preventing the spread of disease; or for the purpose of preventing serious damage to crops "
et cetera, but imposes no such requirement in relation to mammals.
Therefore, I propose to add at the end of line 3 on page 17 the corresponding requirement to consult as regards mammals by adding "and subsection (2)(g) and (h)" which relates to mammals. That is on page 15. I hope I have got the point across. There is this anomaly that for birds there has to be consultation, for mammals there has not. I wish to provide the same conditions for mammals as for birds. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this point. We are in sympathy with the intention of the amendment and accept that there should be a similar requirement relating to the licensing functions. We intend to place it with these departments, where the need is to consider action against it on Schedule 5 animals and Schedule 6 mammals. We will undertake to put down a Government amendment if the noble Lord would withdraw his amendment.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: I am grateful. I most willingly beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 321 not moved.]
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 322:
After Clause 15, insert the following new clause:
(" .—(1) It shall be the duty of the appropriate authority under section 15 to maintain registers containing:—

(a) the names and addresses of applicants to it for licences under that section; and

(b) copies of licences so issued.

(2) It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to maintain registers containing the names and addresses of—

(a) applicants to him for registration under section 6(2) of this Part;

(b) persons currently so registered;

(c) details of applications for and registration of birds under section 7(1).

(3) It shall be the duty of the appropriate authority and the Secretary of State respectively in relation to the register maintained under subsections (1) and (2):—

(a) to secure that the registers are open to inspection by the public free of charge at all reasonable hours; and

(b) to afford members of the public reasonable facilities for obtaining from them on payment of reasonable charges, copies of entries in the relevant register.").

The noble Lord said: This is a thoroughly self-explanatory amendment. It is simply aimed to ensure that the licensing procedure—by which everybody

61
is clearly setting such store, and which the noble Earl has already said would be to some extent open to public scrutiny because of the fact that the Government have to make an annual report to the EEC on their derogations from the directive—and the process of issuing licences is as open to public scrutiny as is possible, so that all of us can be sure, as licences are issued, that they are being issued for the purposes which Parliament has decided they should be.
The amendment would ensure that licences and registrations would be available. This would allow voluntary organisations particularly to give information to the authorities if they needed to about people in the trade whom they know not to be of the sort of character in respect of which the Government would have wished to issue licences. The clause is based on Section 41 of the Control of Pollution Act 1974, which I hope means that the drafting is reasonably acceptable to the Government.
There is one other argument I would advance in favour of having this sort of openness and the register. In the case of birds registered under Clause 7(1) of the Bill, a person buying a bird needs to know if it has been registered because otherwise the person would commit an offence when they purchased it. The sort of register I have suggested in this amendment would allow somebody to make sure that they did not inadvertently commit that sort of offence. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: On the whole there is only one objection we have to this, which I shall come to, but we feel that quite a lot of this is already covered in the Bill. There is a clear duty imposed on the Secretary of State by the registration provisions of Clause 6 in respect of taxidermists and Clause 7 in respect of registrable birds to keep the type of records required in the amendment. Subsection (1) would impose a statutory duty, but in practice records would of practical necessity be maintained. Subsection (3) would allow unrestricted access to the records, and this is the part we find objectionable.
In particular I ought to mention the privacy of confidential information, a matter which your Lordships know is of increasing concern these days, but perhaps for the noble Lord I should refer to the high risk of information falling into the wrong hands. Many of the birds that will be required to be registered, particularly a number of the hawks, are rare and of value both in this country and abroad. We recognise that there would be little point in keeping records if they could not be used, and we intend to allow people to have information if they show reasonable cause. There is an apt analogy here in the access to vehicle registration records, for example. The department has gained considerable experience in these matters in operating the Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976 and proposes to operate the new provisions in the same way. With that explanation of what we propose to do, I hope that the noble Lord will not feel so concerned about the need for his amendment and will withdraw it.
Lord Melchett: I am not sure the Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act is the best analogy the Minister could have drawn on because my information is that there has been an enormous amount of disquiet
62
about the standards and quality of the department's information in maintaining a register under that Act, and that on a number of occasions those concerned in the voluntary organisations have found it impossible to get information or have found the information muddled, inaccurate and out-of-date or have themselves corrected the department's information. I am sure the department has gained a great deal of experience from that measure and I know the department has been taking a number of steps recently to try to improve their performance, so there is recognition that matters need improving.
I am rather worried when the noble Earl says that access wilt be given to those deemed suitable to have the information. One would like some assurance, in the Bill or some other way, about who exacly will be deemed suitable because I would not like the Government to decide once the measure has become law that the only people suitable to receive this information are, for example, Government servants or people who have signed the Official Secrets Act or officers of ADAS and the NFU and nobody else. I am not suggesting for a moment that the Government would make such a decision, but there seems to be a point here which, if it is not covered in the Bill, could be covered by a more specific assurance from the Government during the passage of the Bill. I will leave it there for now, and perhaps the Minister will write to me if he thinks there is any more he can say on the subject. I will consider between now and Report what he said and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16 agreed to.
Clause 17 agreed to.
Clause 18 [Enforcement]:
6.33 p.m.
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 323:
Page 17, line 39, at end insert—
(" (e) in the case of an offence suspected of other than a person he reasonably suspects to be an authorised person, enter any land other than buildings for the purpose of exercising any power conferred on him under this Act.
( ) In subsection (1)(e) above, "land" has the meaning given in section 48(1) of this Act, but the power of entry given in that paragraph shall not be exercised in relation to land occupied by or under the management of:

(a) the Secretary of State responsible for Defence, or

(b) the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, or

(c) the service authorities of a visiting force within the meaning of any of the provisions of Part I of the Visiting Forces Act 1952, or

(d) any headquarters or organisation designated for the purposes of the International Headquarters and Defence Organisations Act 1964.").

The noble Lord said: This is another detailed amendment which I will move briefly. Its purpose is to ensure that a police constable going on to land—but, I emphasise, not into buildings—where that police officer suspects offences are taking place will not be a trespasser so long as he goes on to the land without thinking that the person involved in committing the offence is an authorised person. Having said that, I hope the Committee will sympathise with me in trying to explain a somewhat convoluted amendment, for which I apologise.
The restriction is quite restricted but it would provide a useful clarification of police powers. The Minister may say that a police officer would be so authorised anyway under Section 2 of the Game Act 1831, from which the words of the amendment are taken—so again I hope the drafting is all right—in which case I would be happy to consider the point, but it seems to me that that Act is more or less redundant, apart from this section of it, and that that Act of 1831 could be done away with if this provision were added to the Bill.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: We sympathise to a great extent with the amendment. There seems a need, for example, for a police constable who sees someone shooting at an obviously protected bird to be able to enter land to investigate. On the other hand, we are not happy about the wording of the amendment. I undertake to consider whether a Government amendment to achieve the aims encompassed by this amendment should be tabled at a later stage, and accordingly I invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Melchett: I am delighted at that response and am grateful to the noble Lord. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley Lord Beaumont of Whitley moved Amendment No. 324:
Page 17, leave out lines 42 and 43 and insert—
(" (a) an offence for which this Part provides that a person shall on conviction be liable to a special penalty has been committed ").
The noble Lord said: Clause 18, which provides for the issue of search warrants to constables investigating offences involving the specially protected wild birds listed in Schedule 1, such offences attracting a special penalty, is very welcome. However, there appears to be a slight lack because there is no provision to grant such warrants for all offences which involve special penalties, and by definition such offences in this class must be regarded as serious. The purpose of the amendment is that powers to issue search warrants be extended to cover those.
An important difficulty has arisen in the past, and it may arise again if this provision remains as drafted. I refer particularly to the special penalty offences in Clause 5 which involve the laying of poisons or the use of pole traps. Both are unselective methods of killing birds and the pole trap is barbaric. A constable may wish to establish whether a suspect has under his control a supply of the relevant poison or pole trapping equipment, suspecting very strongly that he does. Without powers for the police to enter premises, a culprit simply needs to claim that some outsider planted the poison or trap on land under his control. Many investigations have foundered on this point in the past and if the Minister would like instances of this I am able to provide them. My amendment would cover those and other similar offences specified in Clause 5 and the special penalty offences in Clause 3 which do not involve Schedule 1 species. It is vital that search
64
warrant powers appropriate to the gravity of such offences be granted, and I therefore beg to move.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: I support the amendment. The use of a search warrant is the kind of protection we require. We were talking about whether a policeman can go on land, but the use of a search warrant given by a magistrate is the kind of thing we must have before we can, with justice, seriously prosecute these offences. These offences will be very hard to deal with without this power, and I therefore hope the Minister will accept the amendment.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: Again, I agree with the amendment. 1 undertake to raise the matter with my noble friend Lord Bellwin and therefore invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: I am grateful to the noble Lord for that assurance and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 18 agreed to.
[Amendment No. 325 not morel.]
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne Lord Cullen of Ashbourne moved Amendment No. 326:
After Clause 18, insert the following new clause:
(" Summary prosecutions
.—(1) This section applies to—

(a) any offence under section 1(1) or 3(1) involving the killing or taking of any wild bird;

(b) any offence under section 9(1) involving the killing or taking of any wild animal; and

(c) any offence under section 12(1) involving the picking, uprooting or destruction of any wild plant.

(2) Summary proceedings for an offence to which this section applies may be brought within a period of six months from the date on which evidence sufficient in the opinion of the prosecutor to warrant the proceedings came to his knowledge; but no such proceedings shall be brought by virtue of this section more than two years after the commission of the offence.
(3) For the purpose of this section a certificate signed by or on behalf of the prosecutor and stating the date on which such evidence as aforesaid came to his knowledge shall be conclusive evidence of that fact; and a certificate stating that matter and purporting to be signed shall be deemed to be so signed unless the contrary is proved.").
The noble Lord said: This is intended to remedy a weakness in the Protection of Birds Acts. It has been found that very often the person committing the offence would have disposed of the illegally taken eggs or birds and the offence would come to light only when they were found some time later in the possession of possibly an innocent or, at any rate, ignorant third party. The period inside which proceedings must start has been extended to two years and we believe that that is a sensible compromise between perpetual jeopardy and the present all-too-easily-escaped six months' limit. I beg to move.
Lord Melchett: I am delighted to see the Government putting down this amendment, and I warmly welcome it.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 19 [Penalties, forfeitures etc.]:
[Amendments Nos. 327 and 328 not moved.]
6.40 p.m.
Baroness David Baroness David moved Amendment No. 329:
Page 18, line 13, leave out (" £500") and insert (" £1,000 ").
The noble Baroness said: I raised the question of the amount of the fines at Second Reading. We think that £500 is quite inadequate when one considers that a peregrine can be sold for anything between £1,000 and £1,500. It seems very unreal to have £500 as a maximum. A noble Lord suggested that there is an alternative prison sentence, but we should not wish to see a prison sentence imposed for an offence of this kind, which seems to me very much to be a case where it is the pocket which should be hit. It is very difficult to catch people who arc trying to get rare birds and eggs, and it seems to me that the courts should have very strong powers of fine in these cases. In speaking to this amendment I can speak also to Amendments Nos. 330 and 331, since the principle is exactly the same. I beg to move.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: Since most of the time I seem to be against the Opposition Front Bench, it gives me great pleasure to support the noble Baroness here. I entirely take her point that by and large prison sentences are not appropriate in these cases, but extra fines most certainly are.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: I am sorry to hear that from my noble friend behind me, because I am not in favour of the amendment. While understanding the intentions behind the amendments, the Government consider the Bill as drafted to achieve the right balance, and this reflects the present position. We carefully considered an increase in the maximum penalty levels, but concluded that it was right to use the statutory maximum fine, currently £1,000, for offences involving the illegal introduction of non-native species, which are potentially the most harmful of the offences in this part of the Bill. Also, we have maintained the power which allows magistrates to send people to prison in respect of certain offences for up to three months and the multiplier provision which allows penalties to he applied separately in respect of each bird or egg which is the subject of a charge. That is the Government's view on this matter, and I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw the amendment.
Baroness David: No, I shall not withdraw the amendment because we feel strongly that the maximum fine should be £1,000.
6.44 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 329) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 52; Not-Contents, 67.

CONTENTS

Avebury, L.

Brockway, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Bernstein, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Boston of Faversham, L.

Caccia, L.

66

Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.

Melchett, L.

Collison, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

David, B.

Monson, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Noel-Baker, L.

Diamond, L.

Ogmore, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Peart, L.

Hale, L.

Phillips, B.

Hampton, L.

Ross of Marnock, L.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Seear, B.

Howie of Troon, L.

Segal, L.

Jacques, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Jeger, B.

Stedman, B.

Kilbracken, L.

Stone, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Thurso, V.

Kinloss, Ly,

Tryon, L.

Knutsford, V.

Underhill, L. [Teller.]

Listowel, E.

Wallace of Coslany, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller.]

Wells-Pestell, L.

White, B.

Loudoun, C.

Wigoder, L.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Winstanley, L.

McCarthy, L.

Winterbottom, L.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ailesbury, M.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Airey of Abingdon, B.

Inglewood, L.

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Killearn, L.

Allerton, L.

Kilmany, L.

Avon, E.

Kimberley, E.

Balerno, L.

Kinnoull, E.

Bathurst, E.

Lauderdale, E.

Caithness, E.

Long, V. [Teller.]

Campbell of Croy, L.

Lonsdale, E.

Cathcart, E.

Lyell, L.

Chelwood, L.

McFadzean, L.

Chorley, L.

Mancroft, L.

Cockfield, L.

Margadale, L.

Cross, V.

Marley, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Middleton, L.

Dacre of Glanton, L.

Mills, V.

Daventry, V.

Monk Bretton, L.

de Clifford, L.

Northchurch, B.

De La Warr, E.

Onslow, E.

Denham, L.

Orkney, E.

Drumalbyn, L.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Dundee, E.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Ellenborough, L.

Saint Oswald, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Sandford, L.

Fortescue, E.

Savile, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Skelmersdale, L. [Teller.]

Gainford, L.

Stradbroke, E.

Gisborough, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Glenarthur, L.

Swansea, L.

Grimstone of Westbury, L.

Swinfen, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Trumpington, B.

Vickers, B.

Halifax, E.

Vivian, L.

Home of the Hirsel, L.

Yarborough, E.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
6.52 p.m.
Baroness David Baroness David had given notice to move Amendment No. 330:
Page 18, line 16, leave out (" £50 ") and insert (" £100 ").
The noble Baroness said: I have in effect spoken to this amendment already. I feel very strongly that £50 is totally inadequate, but I think that in view of the vote we have just taken we should not move this amendment for the moment but should wait to hear what happens to Amendment No. 332 to be moved by the noble Lord, Lord Craigton. So for the moment I will not move this amendment.
[Amendment No. 331 not moved.]
Lord Craigton Lord Craigton moved Amendment No. 332:
Page 18, line 19, leave out ("£500") and insert ("the statutory maximum").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is, in a way, a matter of principle. The effects of it would be to increase the fine to £1,000, about which your Lordships have already voted. But, as I understand it, the situation in magistrates' courts is that magistrates are likely to work on the Act in front of them; so far as the fine is concerned, this may have been increased in later reprintings of the Act, and the magistrates may not have the information. Would it not be more sensible, in view of the erratic value of money, to put no figure in here, as my amendment suggests, and then, in future legislation, instead of saying "the statutory maximum" you could say "half the statutory maximum". But as it is the situation is unsatisfactory, and I believe there is an improvement here. I beg to move.
Baroness David: I think it goes without saying that we should support this amendment.
The Earl of Avon: The Government believe that the appropriate penalty for offences against protected species is £500. The term "statutory maximum" is reserved specifically for linking the maximum summary penalty for offences triable either summarily or on indictment to the inflation-proofed prescribed sum as defined in the Criminal Law Act, and that is currently £1,000. Maximum penalties for all new summary offences in both local and national legislation have, since the Criminal Law Act 1977, been fixed, according to the relative gravity of the offences concerned, on a four-point scale—£50, £200, £500 and £1,000. Under normal circumstances £1,000 is currently the maximum financial penalty which may be imposed by magistrates' courts, and is thus reserved for the most serious offences. I hope that with that clarification my noble friend will not wish to press his amendment.
Lord Melchett: I must say that I do not really understand the line the Government are taking on this unless it is coming to them from the Home Office rather than from their scientific advisers; because, as (I think it was) the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, said on an earlier day, it is possible now to sell young peregrines for well over £1,000, so the statutory maximum fine does not at the moment equal the monetary gain which somebody is likely to be able to achieve by stealing one of the rare species dealt with in this Bill. That is today, and we all know from previous experience of the Protection of Birds Act that the level of the monetary penalty got out of date very quickly. Indeed, in another place my honourable friend Mr. Hardy had to introduce a Bill to bring the penalties in the Protection of Birds Act up to date—an absolutely ridiculous procedure and a waste of everybody's time in both Houses, except that it was a very important outcome. Nevertheless, it is absurd, it seems to me, for us to get ourselves into that muddle again.
If we insert the statutory maximum in this Bill it will be automatically increased as the years go by and we shall not have the business of endless Private Members' Bills having to go through both Houses of Parliament increasing £500 to £600 and then, three or
68
four years later, increasing £600 to £750 and so on—all the time knowing that when this Bill was made an Act the monetary penalties were not sufficiently high to counteract the types of offence which we know are already occurring under the existing legislation. We on this side of your Lordships' Committee, as I think my noble friend has already made clear, are not at all keen on people being sent to prison for offences of this type. It does not seem to us to be remotely appropriate; but if we are going to lose that power—and I think that, from the sound of it, we would have had some support from noble Lords opposite—we really do need to have an adequate monetary penalty in the Bill.
The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, would achieve that, and would achieve its being index-linked as well, which would, as I have said, save us a lot of time in the future. I really do think that this is something for which, from my reading of previous debates, there is a lot of support on both sides of the Committee, and which the Government should really be prepared to accept.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: If the statutory maximum is an inflation-linked sum and yet it is the highest fine that can be imposed, the Government appear to have got themselves into rather a difficult situation. One can quite well see that it is in some ways in the interests of justice that fines can be worked on a different scale, with four different scales depending on the gravity of the offence, and that these can be tied to inflation in such a way that we do not have to go on passing Bills the whole time. On the other hand, you have a very difficult situation where, as is occurring now, the profit to be made from a crime which is not in itself one that you would necessarily put in the absolute top category is such that just one of these crimes, successfully committed just once, will produce a larger profit than the fine.
My noble friend Lord Thurso tells me that the bottom is falling out of the falcon market. I do not ask him how he knows these things, but that may be so. But whether or not it is so, there is a very real difficulty here. May I ask the noble Earl the Minister whether it would be possible, for instance—and I am sorry to admit my ignorance on this matter, but I think noble Lords will agree that this is in fact a rather complex one—to put down an amendment at a later stage providing that the penalty should be (shall we say?) half or three-quarters of the maximum. At least as I understand it, that would get over the inflation problem, if it did nothing else. It would not necessarily meet the problem of the amount of money that is to be made in this nefarious trade. I think the Government as a whole should look again at this policy that they have about fines. We can hardly upset the whole of the Home Office penal policy on this clause. I wonder whether the noble Lord would care to look at the solution I have put forward.
The Earl of Onslow: I think that may have got ourselves into a slight muddle here. It is important to work out that people should be fined more than the value of something they sell. Even though the bottom of the market may have fallen out of the falcon market, I am sure they are still saleable in Arabia

69
for more than £1,000. I know there are several middle men to get through and I know that this may be expensive, and so on. But I beg my noble friend to consider this. If one looks through this list carefully, one will find birds and animals which can be sold to overseas zoos at or to others at prices in excess of the maximum fine. Of course, we do not want the maximum fine always to be imposed. Rarely is it imposed by magistrates—who are sometimes criticised, when the maximum fine is, say, £500 they impose a fine of £15. Not to impose the maximum fine, as I believe the statistics will show, is fairly normal. I think it is important that people should not have an automatically built-in profit to be made on the sale of something rare. We all agree that the offenders need punishing and we all agree that these rare species must he protected. There is no difference between us on that.
Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge: In defence of most overseas zoos—and I know a good many of them—this was a very unfair statement. I do not think that they normally cheat in this way.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: Three or four years ago there were one or two instances where peregrine falcons were sold for as much as £3,000. That would not be so today. It is a fact that they are breeding in captivity and some have been bred like that. I would not say, as the noble Lord said, that the bottom has fallen out of the falcon market; but I believe the market is not as strong as it was. I still say that £1,000 is the right figure for the fine.
Lord Drumalbyn: May I ask my noble friend to refresh my memory? Some years ago the osprey came back to the Boat of Garten area in North Scotland, and tremendous trouble was taken to protect it. There were watchers for 24 hours a day who tried to do this. But in the end somebody had a go at it; but I do not remember what the result was. This was a very grave offence. I would not agree that, in a case like that, imprisonment would be wrong. I do not know what was the monetary value of the escapade to the people committing it. But I think it ought to be borne in mind that it can be a serious offence and may cause a great deal of public loss and public dismay.
Lord Melchett: I do not know whether the noble Earl knows the answer; but, as I remember it, at least once if not on more occasions the ospreys there were put off the nest and either eggs or the young were stolen. There is still a 24-hour watch on that nest as on many nests of rare birds in Scotland, North England and Wales. The monetary gain from stealing the young of a bird of prey is still very high. That is why we support Lord Craigton's amendment.
The Earl of Avon: Speaking from this Dispatch Box, nobody wants to see anybody going to prison on these sort of charges. My noble friend behind me said that on a matter like the ospreys, offenders might be sent to prison. My noble friend Lord Onslow raised the point of whether £500 or £1,000 is enough. Here we get into trouble when another noble friend says that it is worth £3,000. The rarity value and the amount of the fine really cannot be argued. The penalties in Clause 19,
70
if I could give the Government thinking, were chosen against the background of the Home Office scales. They reflect the penalties available for other comparable offences. The maximum fine of £500 on summary conviction is the level of the fine now available for the offence of deer poaching under the Deer Act. It is also subject to the same multiplier device by which penalties may be applied separately in respect of each bird, animal or plant in question. The existence of this device in wildlife legislation reflects the Government's commitment to protect our wildlife heritage. The effect is to enable magistrates to exceed their normal sentencing powers in cases where more than one item is involved in the offence.
The amendment proposed would mean that the penalties in the Bill would be inconsistent with those approved in the Deer Act and would provide sentencing powers depending on the numbers of items involved far in excess of the general limit applicable to the lower courts. I think it is important to preserve a sense of proportion and I believe the present prescription achieves this. It came up in the course of this discussion whether the £500 was inflation-proof. Like the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, I thought the answer would be, Yes; but I am afraid the answer is, No. Apparently, only the maximum fine for the offence is inflation-proof. There is no legislation at the moment in the (I think) Criminal Law Act to inflate the £500 fine. We have had an interesting discussion and I look forward to what my noble friend will say.
The Earl of Onslow: Could I make one point? When you are dealing with a deer-poaching offence the carcase of one roe deer is worth about £120. A peregrine falcon is worth a lot more. That is what we are arguing over.
Lord Craigton: There are two things that I should like to say. The first is that this amendment springs from the fertile brain of my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale who, for perfectly good reasons, was unable to move it. He should get the credit for it. Having been on the Front Bench myself, I realise the difficulties which can be caused when this sort of amendment is pressed. On the other hand, noble Lords on both sides of the Committee have made me realise that the Craigton-Skelmersdale amendment has a great deal of merit. We cannot go on without forcing the Government to do something. That is what Governments are there for. That is what the Back-Benches are there for.
7.8 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 332) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 71; Not-Contents, 29.

CONTENTS

Ailesbury, M.

Broadbridge, L.

Avebury, L.

Brockway, L.

Bathurst, E.

Brooks of Tremorfa, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Brougham and Vaux, L.

Bernstein, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Beswick, L.

Caccia, L.

Blease, L.

Chorley, L.

Boston, L.

Collison, L.

71

Colwyn, L.

Melchett, L.

Craigavon, V.

Mills, V.

Craigton, L. [Teller.]

Monson, L.

Dacre of Glanton, L.

Newall, L.

David, B. [Teller.]

Noel-Baker, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Noel-Buxton, L.

de Clifford, L.

Northfield, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Ogmore, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Onslow, E.

Ellenborough, L.

Orkney, E.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Phillips, B.

Goronwy-Roberts, L.

Sandford, L.

Hale, L.

Savile, L.

Hampton, L.

Seear, B.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Shannon, E.

Howie of Troon, L.

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Stedman, B.

Jacques, L.

Stone, L.

Jeger, B.

Swansea, L.

Kilbracken, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Knutsford, V.

Trumpington, B.

Listowel, E.

Tryon, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Underhill, L.

Lonsdale, E.

White, B.

Lovell-Davis, L.

Wigoder, L.

McCarthy, L.

Winstanley, L.

Mancroft, L.

Yarborough, E.

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

NOT-CONTENTS

Alexander of Tunis, E.

Inglewood, L.

Allerton, L.

Killearn, L.

Avon, E.

Kilmany, L.

Balerno, L.

Kinnoull, E.

Bessborough, E.

Lauderdale, E.

Caithness, E.

Long, V. [Teller.]

Campbell of Croy, L.

Lyell, L. [Teller.]

Cathcart, E.

Marley, L.

Chelwood, L.

Middleton, L.

Cullen of Ashbourne, L.

Morris, L.

Daventry, V.

Northchurch, B.

Dundee, E.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Glenarthur, L.

Saint Oswald, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Vickers, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
7.17 p.m.
The Earl of Avon: with the permission of the Committee, I beg to move that the house do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

British Railways (Victoria) Bill [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committed.
Great Yarmouth Borough Council Bill [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.
Milford Docks Bill [H.L.]
Read 2a and referred to the Examiners.
Peterborough Development Corporation Bill [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiner.
Preston Borough Council Bill [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.
Sion College Bill [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
United Reformed Church Bill [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
United Reformed Church (Slough) Bill [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.

Wallerawang Collieries, Limited Bill [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
Lord Lyell: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn during pleasure until eight o'clock.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 7.20 to 8 p.m.]

Wildlife and Countryside Bill [H.L.]
House again in Committee on Clause 19.
Lord Sandys Lord Sandys moved Amendment No. 333:
Page 18, line 27, leave out (" or plant ") and insert (" plant or other thing ").
The noble Lord said: This is an amendment to ensure that the device by which penalties may be applied separately in respect of each bird, nest egg, animal or plant also applies to any part or derivative thereof. I beg to move.
Baroness David: We shall be pleased to support this amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Kilbracken Lord Kilbracken moved Amendment No. 334:
Page 18, line 34, leave out (" shall ") and insert (" may ").
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this amendment is to substitute the word "may" for the word "shall" at the beginning of Clause 19(5)(a), thus making it discretionary rather than obligatory for the court to order any forfeiture of any bird, nest, et cetera, in respect of which the offence was committed.
This amendment has been made less necessary by the putting down of Amendment No. 335A, which would delete all the words from "committed" to the end of the paragraph. It was in those cases that I felt it was particularly desirable that the forfeiture should be nor more than discretionary, but I do invite the Committee to consider whether my proposal is still not preferable, in view of the fact that it orders the court to impose the forfeiture of any bird, egg, nest, et cetera in respect of which the offence was committed, and that can be any offence under this part. For example, if someone is before the court because he has disturbed a bird or disturbed the young of a bird, the court has to order the forfeiture of that bird—which of course is still flying about in the wild. I suggest it is not right that it should be obligatory and that it would be better to accept my amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Sandys: Under Section 12(3) of the Protection of Birds Act it is already mandatory for the court to seize the subject of the offence, and to accept the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, would merely give the court discretion on such a seizure, which would be a dilution of the penalty. It is important that offenders should have no opportunity of enjoying the fruits of their crimes, and accordingly I request your Lordships to reject this amendment and to continue to compel the court to seize the specimens.
Lord Kilbracken: I do not want to make too much of this, but I do not think we should be afraid of making changes which would improve the existing legislation. The point I made was that in cases one can foresee it would not be possible to order the forfeiture of the egg, animal or plant in question. Therefore, I thought it would still be preferable to make it discretionary, but, as I say, I do not want to make too much of it and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Sandys Lord Sandys moved Amendment No. 335:
Page 18, line 35, leave out (" or plant ") and insert (" plant or other thing ").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is similar to Amendment No. 333. It seeks to extend the power of the court to order the forfeiture of any part or derivative of any bird, nest, egg, animal or plant in respect of which an offence has been committed. This is another way of approaching the problem, and I hope the Committee may feel it is a more satisfactory one. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Sandys Lord Sandys moved Amendment No. 335A:
Page 18, line 36, leave out from (" committed ") to (" and ") in line 39.
The noble Lord said: As at present drafted, Clause 19(5)(a) in requiring the forfeiture of further specimens of illegally released or escaped species would act harshly if there was no likelihood of further specimens being so released or allowed to escape. The combined effect of these amendments is to make forfeiture in such cases a matter of the court's discretion.
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I think your Lordships will appreciate that we are introducing here a degree of discretion in another aspect, and I think that is probably acceptable to the Committee. I beg to move.
Baroness David: May I just ask the noble Lord whether he is thinking entirely in terms of animals or whether plants would also be considered here?—because it seems to me that that is a slightly different category.
Lord Sandys: The subsection does say:
" in the case of an offence under section 13, any animal or plant which is of the same kind as that in respect of which the offence was committed and was found in his possession; ".
So both animals and plants are in this amendment. I hope that it is sufficient explanation. It does not specifically refer to derivatives of animals but this is perhaps not the point the noble Baroness wished to touch on.
Baroness David: No, not really. It seems to me that an animal and plant, or seed of a plant, are in rather different categories; so before giving my approval to this I should like to have a look at what the noble Lord has said and possibly come back at a later stage.
Lord Kilbracken: It seems to me it would be very difficult to order the forfeiture of all plants of the same species. It is a strange fact that it is not going to be legal to plant in the wild plants that do not grow in the wild, so if a landowner takes it into his head to plant some roses on woodland or outside his garden, that would be an offence, which seems very remarkable. If he is found guilty of this heinous crime of growing roses in the wild the court would have to order the forfeiture of all his roses which are growing in the garden. That seems to be quite impracticable.
Lord Sandys: The noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, has raised a very interesting anomaly. I think this must have occurred to all those who read the Bill with some care, as the noble Lord undoubtedly has done. Certainly there are some extreme cases in which such a situation could arise and undoubtedly the position has certain complications to which perhaps noble Lords have already drawn attention.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
8.9 p.m.
Lord Milverton Lord Milverton had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 336:
Page 18, line 39, after (" possession ") insert—
(" ( ) may order the forfeiture of any part of, or anything derived from, any such thing such as is mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection; ").
Lord Melchett: As the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, is not in his place I wonder if I may speak to this amendment.
Lord Sandys: With the agreement of the Committee. If any Member of the Committee disagrees to it, I think we should put the Question.
Lord Melchett: My understanding, having taken advice, is that it is in order for any noble Lord to move

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an amendment which is on the Marshalled List, and I beg leave to move No. 336. This amendment actually came up at an earlier stage when we were discussing parts of eggs. The effect of subsection (5) of Clause 19 is to enable a court to order the forfeiture, besides other things, of any bird, nest, egg, or other animal or plant in respect of which an offence has been committed. This amendment extends the provision to parts and derivatives, such as the skins of birds or animals, and parts and extracts of plants which are sold from time to time. As I said, we had an amendment about parts of eggs at an earlier stage. This is not exactly the same point, but it is a similar kind of point. I hope that that is simply a useful clarification and that, in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, the Government will nevertheless accept the amendment. beg to move.
Lord Sandys: We are in a slightly more complicated position here. The Government's Amendment, No. 335, which was accepted by the Committee, has already ensured that a court shall confiscate parts and derivatives. The Government oppose this amendment, as it would not require the court to confiscate parts and derivatives. This is the current position and we would not wish to see it weakened. Convicted persons should not be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their crimes, as I have already suggested, and I feel, despite the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, that in its present shape this amendment is not acceptable.
Lord Melchett: I take it, from what the noble Lord said at the beginning of his remarks, that the words "or other thing" cover parts and derivatives of plants and animals—animal skins and so on. The noble Lord is nodding and that is what I understood him to say. With that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby Lord Houghton of Sowerby moved Amendment No. 337:
Page 18, line 40, after (" any ") insert (" vehicle, animal, weapon or other ").
The noble Lord said: I think it would be convenient to deal with Amendment No. 338 at the same time. This has to do with forfeitures under subsection (5)(b) on page 18, which reads that the court,
… may order the forfeiture of any thing which was used to commit the offence ".
The paragraph above that says that the court shall order the forfeiture of the fruits of the offence. Whether it be birds' eggs, a plant or an animal, the fruits of the offence must be forfeited. But the court may order the forfeiture of any thing which was used to commit the offence. That means that if, for example, a person has used a crossbow unlawfully to destroy a bird or animal which was protected under the Bill, then the court could order the forefeiture of the weapon used.
What, however, is not clear is whether a vehicle or a boat used for the purpose of committing the offence, could be forfeited under the term "any thing ". I am advised that consideration of similar statutory powers indicates that the generic term "thing" in that
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context could not be construed as including a vehicle or a boat. If the area of forfeiture is to be widened beyond that in the clause, then my advice is that it has to be explicitly mentioned in the clause,
This introduces also the second amendment; namely, whether a thing is used in the committing of the offence, or whether it helps in the committing of the offence. There are precedents for this. For example, let us suppose that a person drove in a motor vehicle to a remote part, where he understood there were birds nesting which were protected under the Bill and which he wanted to capture. He used a weapon for the purpose and, having got his prey, went back to the motor vehicle and drove back to town. As it is at present drafted, I understand that while he may be required to forfeit whatever weapon or thing he used to capture the birds, this clause would not allow the court to order him to surrender his vehicle; or, if he had been guilty of going on water for the purpose of marauding animals or birds, the boat would not be included either.
But in the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1972, the example that I have given is covered. It would be possible to require him to foreit his vehicle, as well as the weapon with which he captured or killed the fish or other thing which is forbidden under the law. This is really a lawyer's amendment, although it has practical value from the point of view of whether we are really going to go for these people good and hard, or whether they might escape with forfeiture of the minor implement that they were using for the purpose of their crime, and get away with the main instrument of carrying out their raid on some protected bird or animal.
I do not know what are the Government's intentions with regard to the extension of the forfeiture required under this clause, but it seems to me that it is not enough, in the kind of example that I have given, to allow a court to require a person to forfeit a gun, and not allow a court to require him to forfeit a Land Rover which got him there and back again and without which he could not have committed the crime at all. So this amendment extends the field of forfeitures and must also extend, as it were, the area of the offence; namely, to instruments used for the purpose of committing the offence and not be confined to instruments used in the committing of the offence. That is the effect of this amendment.
I hope that I have made clear what the purpose is and that the Government may have a view about it. I think we should extend the forfeitures to cover the kind of examples that I have given, which would carry with it the need to extend the words that are in the clause to include
… in or in connection with the commission of the offence ".
I beg to move.
Lord Northfield: It is also important to include the vehicle that is taking away the animal, or whatever it is that the offence is in respect of, after the commission of the offence. So it is not only arriving; it is taking away and making a get-away with the prey.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: I am grateful to my noble friend. He is, of course, thinking of deer.
Lord Northfield: We already have it in the case of deer.
Lord Sandys: The noble Lord, Lord Houghton, draws our attention to a particularly interesting part of the drafting of this Bill. I think I can assure the noble Lord that the situation has been thought about by our parliamentary counsel and I can set his mind at rest. The amendment seeks to allow a court to confiscate any vehicle, animal, weapon or other thing. However, the Bill as drafted provides for this. The words "any thing" cover a vehicle, an animal, et cetera. I can assure the noble Lord that parliamentary counsel have drafted this clause in the Bill on the clear understanding that vehicles, animals and weapons should be covered. I hope this explanation will satisfy the noble Lord and that he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Melehett: I am not entirely clear about this. My noble friend Lord Northfield quite rightly intervened. In one of the best drafted pieces of legislation which have been passed through Parliament recently; namely, the Deer Act 1980, in Section 5, where an exactly similar provision appears, this is spelled out in detail:
" The court has the power to order the forfeiture of any vehicle, animal, weapon or other thing ".
Parliamentary counsel were presumably involved in clearing the drafting of that Act and thought it necessary to spell all this out in detail. I cannot see why, a few months later, parliamentary counsel suddenly are convinced that "any thing" includes all these things without it being spelled out. I cannot see how "any thing" can include an animal. In normal usage, certainly it is not apparent. It seems to me that it would improve the drafting of the clause if my noble friend's amendment, or something like it, were accepted. I wonder whether the Government would look at this again in the light of the advice which parliamentary counsel gave so recently on another Act of Parliament.
Lord Sandys: I have listened with interest to the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, who rightly referred to Section 5 of the Deer Act 1980. I think that it would be only right once more to consider the situation in a little detail. I cannot advise the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, that the Government will bring forward their own amendment, if necessary. However, in the light of what has been said by all noble Lords concerned —the Bill introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, has been mentioned—we shall have a look at this provision. On that understanding, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: If the noble Lord is to take this back and look at everything, including the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, I should like him to consider whether or not animal" is or is not included at the moment. At the risk of sounding sentimental, I do not think that we should encourage the giving of powers for the confiscation of, say, people's dogs. I have no sympathy with poachers and the kind of people who prey on the rare species we are talking about in the Bill, but there are certain
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sentimentalities which are soundly based. Whatever solution is found, it should not include that one.
Lord Northfield: I resist that suggestion on the following grounds. Particularly in the case of deer we have now reached the stage where lurcher clogs are trained to do exactly this. I feel rather sore about it, because two days ago one of them attacked my own dogs. It is a particularly cruel way of killing deer. It is very clear that these or similar dogs can be trained to commit other offences which are dealt with in the Bill. When they become directly relevant to the commission of the act in that way, I should be strongly in favour of confiscation as one of the most important deterrents in the Bill.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: I still stand by my remarks which were purely personal and have nothing to do with my party, which on this extremely important point has no policy on it.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: The noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, will probably recall that the Deer Act 1963 had to be extended by the Deer Act 1980 so as to provide for this very forfeiture. Although no distinction is made in the Deer Act 1980 between the weapon that kills and the vehicle which gets the offender there, the forfeiture of the means of getting there and back and carrying the quarry back was clearly provided for in the definition of forfeitures in the 1980 Act. The Badgers Act comes into it, too. There the forfeitures relate to the particular methods of taking the badger. They do not deal with the vehicle because the vehicle is probably not so necessary as in the case of deer, and probably is not necessary in the case of some of the crimes which might be committed under this Bill.
I am satisfied that the Minister has a small legal problem to consider with parliamentary counsel in order to see whether it is watertight. It would be a pity if the first case taken to the courts to test the construction of the words of this section resulted in a decision by the courts that the vehicle or boat was not within the range of forfeiture. Then the assurance given by the noble Lord would not be so satisfactory as he hopes it will be. However, I leave it in his hands and in the meantime withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
8.28 p.m.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby Lord Houghton of Sowerby had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 338:
Page 18, line 41, leave out (" to commit ") and insert (" in or in connection with the commission of ").
The noble Lord said: In view of the fact that I have withdrawn Amendment No. 337, I do not move this amendment.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard Viscount Massereene and Ferrard moved Amendment No. 339:
Page 18, line 41, at end insert (" including a vehicle which was used to carry the person committing the offence and which contains any bird, nest, egg, other animal or plant in respect of which the offence was committed ").
The noble Viscount said: Much that I wanted to say in speaking to this amendment has already been said.

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My amendment and two of the amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, are in much the same vein. The point, which the noble Lord explained to us, is not so much to do with the vehicle in which the poacher commits the offence. It is to do with the vehicle which takes away the animals or the plants that he has illegally taken. As the Bill is drafted, a defendant could say that the vehicle was not used to commit the offence. Therefore, I do not think that you could forfeit the vehicle. This clause needs more enforcement powers. As I pointed out in the case of the original Deer Act, which was followed up extremely ably by the noble Lord, Lord Northfield, and as the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, mentioned in the case of the Salmon Acts, you can forfeit the cars, the boats, the gear, the nets—everything that is used for poaching. When the Government come, as I understand they will, to redraft this part of Section 5, I hope that—
Lord Sandys: To put my noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard on the right lines regarding the Government's thinking on this matter, we are going to examine the clause. I did not say that we were going to draft a new amendment. I said that we are going to have another look at it.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: I was trying to put words into my noble friend's mouth. Perhaps I should not have done so. As the Bill is drafted, under paragraph (b) you
"may order the forfeiture of any thing which was used to commit the offence ".
Surely a dog is not a thing?
The Earl of Avon: Yes.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: I did not think that a thing was a live being. If you look at the Oxford dictionary, I do not think you will find that is the case, but perhaps I am wrong. I should think that might be altered, too. I beg to move.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood: I support this amendment because I think it would help very much if the Government would put something of this kind into the Bill. There are a variety of escape clauses for thieves if one does not absolutely write down what would happen. Anyone who was stealing an animal or a bird, or whatever it might be, and then got some help from someone taking him off in a motor car or a Land Rover who was not, as it were, involved in the actual theft, could probably get away with it. If we could bring in something of this kind, I think it would be an additional method of helping the police, or whoever was dealing with the offence, to catch the offender. I hope that the Government will take this quite seriously and will either incorporate this amendment in the Bill, or one of the suggestions made by the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby.
Lord Avebury: I hope the Minister will take this clause away and look at it not only in the light of the debate on this amendment but in the light of previous debates on other amendments, as well. When the
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Minister does so, I would ask him to consider this proposal very carefully. What I understand the noble Lord to be suggesting is that it would be necessary not only for the prosecution to establish that the vehicle had been used in the course of the commission of the offence but also that the vehicle, at some time which was not specified, contained any of the objects in respect of which the offence was committed. I think this would make the job of the police more difficult in securing a conviction where the vehicle had undoubtedly been used in the commission of the offence, in the sense that it was used to take the people to the scene of the crime, but when the police apprehended the criminals they did not find any of the objects in question within the vehicle. So, with respect, I think the noble Lord has not drawn the clause tightly enough, and I would prefer to see one of the earlier amendments incorporated when the noble Lord considers the whole clause.
Lord Craigton: I agree with what has just been said. I admire parliamentary draftsmen enormously —I think they are marvellous—but, in this case, I think that the wording of the Bill here is a little too tight for all that could be read into it.
Lord Sandys: I do not want to repeat the words that I said on the previous amendment. I feel sure that there is ample justification for having another look at it. I do not think that on consideration, looking at the penalties clause, the Government have underestimated the seriousness of the offence—or indeed offences, because sometimes it may be a group of offences. I hope that the noble Viscount will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: In view of what the Minister has said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
8.33 p.m.
Lord Sandys Lord Sandys moved Amendment 338ZA:
Page 18, line 41, at end insert (" and, in the case of an offence under section 13, any animal or plant which is of the same kind as that in respect of which the offence was committed and was found in his possession.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 339A:
Page 18, line 45, at end insert—
(" (7) Where an offence under this Part which has been committed by a body corporate is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of, a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or any person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he, as well as the body corporate, shall be guilty of that offence and shall be liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.
In this subsection "director", in relation to a body corporate established by or under any enactment for the purpose of carrying on under public ownership any industry or part of an industry or undertaking, being a body corporate whose affairs are managed by its members, means a member of that body corporate.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment has a fairly simple purpose. It would make directors liable for the

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activities of their company if they knew, or ought to have known, of them. The reason for putting this into this clause is that companies, of course, can only be fined, although we have already agreed that imprisonment probably would not be a suitable penalty for many of the offences under this Bill. But companies, even if heavily fined, can go into liquidation and avoid that liability. And it seemed useful that, in the very limited circumstances where directors either knew that the company was breaking the law and therefore were directly liable for it or where they ought to have known and had a duty of care which they did not fulfil, they again ought to be liable. I hope the noble Lord will accept this amendment. I beg to move.
The Earl of Onslow: Would not the person concerned be prosecuted and not the company—in other words the person who committed the offence?
Lord Melchett: If this amendment were put into the Bill, there would not be any question about it. I simply do not know. But if the offence was committed in the name of the company by the company's servants in some way, then I suppose it might not be possible without this amendment—unless the Government can convince me that it would be possible—to prosecute the individual concerned.
Lord Sandys: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, for proposing this amendment, which would clarify the question of liability of an individual when an offence had been committed by a corporate body. I note that the wording suggested in the amendment is as it appears in Section 8 of the Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976. Once again the noble Lord has lighted upon a particular section in an existing statute, and it reinforces the waterproof nature of the amendment.
We think that there may be a need for such a provision in the Wildlife and Countryside Bill, but we are not convinced that it should be in Part I. Therefore, I undertake to take away this proposal and give it full consideration, with a view to there being a Government amendment that it be proposed for that Part of the Bill where we feel it would be most relevant. Accordingly, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment on that understanding.
Lord Avebury: Before the noble Lord withdraws this amendment, may I ask one question? This amendment speaks about offences having been committed by a body corporate and then goes on to associate the managers or directors of that body corporate with the offence. I can understand very clearly what the noble Lord is trying to do; if a servant of the body corporate has actually committed the offence, but if it is on the instructions of the directors, then they should not escape punishment. But I wonder whether the noble Lord had confined his attention to companies that are incorporated under the Companies Act and whether there are not other kinds of bodies in which the responsibility might be similarly apportioned between the managers or the proprietors, on the one hand, and the servants, on the other.
It might easily happen that the partners in a partnership might give instructions to someone to commit
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an offence under this Bill and that they equally ought to be held guilty. It is more likely, for example, in the case of an agricultural enterprise that the persons who gave those instructions would have been members of a partnership rather than a limited company, because I think it is more usual for agricultural businesses to be conducted in that way. So when the Minister comes to look at the possibility of incorporating the spirit of this amendment in another part of this Bill, I hope he will consider extending the kinds of bodies to which it applies.
Lord Melchett: The point I had in mind in restricting this to companies was that companies could escape liability by going into liquidation, which of course would not be the case with a partnership. The partners would be individually liable for the activities of the partnership. As the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, has already pointed out, the other advantage of this amendment is that it is already in an Act of Parliament. Therefore, it is properly drafted and I would think that it would be acceptable to most people. I think it covers the main points which need to be covered. We have the question of the liability of landowners for the activities of their servants, in regard to which the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, moved an earlier amendment. I think that really covers the other major point that needs covering. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, for his commitment to propose a Government amendment in the right place in the Bill. I am delighted we have scored another winner today. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 19, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
8.40 p.m.
Baroness David: I should like to ask the Minister a question in relation to Clause 19. We are left now in the most extraordinary situation after the Government defeat on Amendment No. 332. We now have the statutory maximum fine for the protection of certain wild animals and for the protection of wild plants, whereas for the protection of wild birds—that includes the peregrine, which was mentioned constantly—we have the maximum of £500. Therefore, I should like to ask the Government what their intention will be about this.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: I have one other question to ask on the clause. I did raise it on the Question That Clause 13 stand part. That is the question of whether imprisonment is the correct punishment for offences here. Under Clauses 1 to 8 it is three months' imprisonment; under Clause 13 it is up to two years. I fully supported the amendment to increase the fines; I have no objection at all to that. But I am not at all happy that imprisonment is the right thing to do here. It fills our gaols, and I see no purpose in it whatever. I would hope that my noble friend will take this away, and if he cannot give me an answer now perhaps he can give me an answer later.
Lord Melchett: We have said this before, but I do think it is worth reiterating. As your Lordships'

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Committee has passed an amendment to increase the financial penalties, it is important that it comes from all sides of the House that we do not think imprisonment is a suitable penalty for offences under an Act of this sort. I hope the Government, now that they have the increaesd fines which they did not want, will look at the possibility of dropping some of the clauses which allow people to be sentenced to imprisonment.
Earl De La Warr: I should like to support the noble Lords who have just spoken on this Question, particularly on the penalty of imprisonment up to two years for conviction on indictment of an offence under Clause 13. I think it is totally inappropriate, for reasons which I shall not argue any further. My noble friend is probably aware that I shall be dealing with this in an amendment on a later clause. Meanwhile, like other noble Lords who have spoken, I think it would be extremely helpful if my noble friend could say a word about this.
Lord Craigton: I should like to support what has been said about this.
The Earl of Onslow: I should like to support what has been said about this, but there is just one point. If somebody persistently goes on offending under Schedule I in relation to birds, should we be totally throwing away imprisonment for persistent offenders? That is all I ask. Otherwise I am totally in agreement with my noble friend.
Baroness Phillips: I would not like to pre-empt what the Minister will say, but I think it is unusual not to have in an Act of Parliament the linking of the fine with the imprisonment, the and/or phrase. I think it would be breaking new ground. I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong, but simply saying that it would be unusual to have a statutory offence which had only the fine as the penalty.
Lord Drumalbyn: May I simply say that I think it is desirable to keep imprisonment? You never know what people will get up to. There could be quite serious offences for which the financial penalty by itself would not be appropriate. There might be very cruel offences.
Lord Avebury: Surely if any cruelty to animals is involved proceedings can be taken against the offender under other Acts where there may well be imprisonment. Under the Cruelty to Animals Act, no doubt, it is possible to send someone to prison for gross cruelty to animals. As to whether this is the right place to put the penalty of imprisonment, I must say I agree with my noble kinsman Lord Stanley of Alderley in doubting it. I think the serious crimes with which we are dealing here are properly punishable with very heavy fines, and the Minister has been given the power to impose very much greater fines than were in the Bill as originally drafted. To put on top of this the possibility of the courts sending somebody to prison for up to two years is really excessive. I must say to the noble Baroness that there are many offences on the statute book which are punishable only by fines and which do
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not have imprisonment as an alternative. I should have thought that the offences we are dealing with here should be in that category.
Baroness Phillips: I do not want to take issue with the noble Lord, but I do not know of an indictable offence that does not carry imprisonment and/or a fine.
The Earl of Avon: Before we get too involved, there seem to be two issues here; first, what we passed earlier, and, secondly, the question of imprisonment. Of course, we have not had time—as I, too, grabbed a sandwich in the interval—to discuss the consequences of the amendment in increasing the fine from £500 to £1,000 which the Committee has passed. It will be for the Government to move the necessary amendments to go with it or try to make other arrangements, and the House will know later which way we are going to go. On the question of imprisonment, which noble Lords behind me particularly raised, we are looking at this. It was raised with me earlier. The two departments concerned are looking at the question of imprisonment. I hope to be able to come back to noble Lords with this decision when we reach that stage, which I think will probably be on Thursday.
Lord Avebury: Does that mean that the noble Earl will take the opportunity of letting us know what the decision of the departments has been?
The Earl of Avon: If the decision is made by then, I certainly shall, but it is a very complicated question which the two legal departments are in discussion about.
Baroness David: If we do not get an answer by Thursday, perhaps the noble Earl will write to us so that we shall know whether or not to put down amendments at Report stage.
The Earl of Avon: I am sure we shall know by the end of the Bill. I said Thursday because I am not sure where the next amendment about imprisonment comes in. I think it is on Clause 26.
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 20 [Power to vary Schedules):
[Amendments: Nos. 340 to 344 not moved.]
Lord Craigton Lord Craigton moved Amendment No. 345:
Page 19 line 43 leave out subsection (7).
The noble Lord said: I said on an earlier amendment that I admired the parliamentary draftsmen. This is a very well drafted Bill. But I cannot extend my admiration to subsection (7). I simply put this amendment down to get the Minister to say that he will ask the parliamentary draftsmen to have a look at it and make it easier to understand. If he can do that, I shall have pleasure in withdrawing the amendment. I beg to move.
Baroness David: I wonder whether I may ask the Minister a question about this. I was not at all clear either. It appears to me that, if this subsection were taken out, it would annul any alteration to a schedule which was made by order of the Secretary of State

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after the Bill had been enacted, so that if a plant were suddenly in danger of extinction, or indeed a bird or animal, and was therefore added to the schedule, the Secretary of State could not make a special order relating to its protection in a special area because it would not be, so to speak, a foundation member of the schedule. That was my interpretation. Therefore, one would not wish to have the subsection removed. But I do think it is extremely difficult to understand and perhaps could be better drafted. We should like an explanation of what it means.
The Earl of Cranbrook: When redrafting, can I hope that it will be made zoologically literate by admitting that birds and mammals are included in "animals"?
The Earl of Avon: I do not think we have said that we shall redraft it. The purpose of subsection (7) is to ensure that the provisions of the schedules apply in their amended form. That is all it does. If the noble Lord wants some simplification in it I must say that we shall, of course, have a look at it although I think that we are looking at so much at present that I cannot guarantee to come back with anything more favourable.
Lord Craigton: I now understand what subsection (7) means. I did not understand it before. That having been said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 20 shall stand part of the Bill?
Baroness David: I should like to ask one question about Clause 20 which gives the power to vary the schedules. A protected species can suddenly become endangered by some unexpected happening. I want to know how quickly something can be added to, or indeed taken away from, a schedule.
The Earl of Avon: The noble Baroness has slightly bowled me out on that one. I think I shall have to write to her about it.
Baroness David: I apologise; I should have given notice.
The Earl of Avon: 1 think that it is done by order, but f would like to come back to it.
Clause 20 agreed to.
Clause 21 [Advisory bodies and their functions]:
8.52 p.m.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood Baroness Elliot of Harwood moved Amendment No. 345A:
Page 20 line 5, after (" State ") insert (" and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food ").
The noble Baroness said: I beg to move Amendment No. 345A, which stands in my name and that of my two noble friends. I should also like to speak to Amendments Nos. 346A, 346B, 346C, 346D, and 347A and 347B. We have now come to Clause 21 of the Bill which provides power for the Secretary of State to establish bodies to advise him on the carrying out of all that we have been discussing in Part I. As that is
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very largely the concern of both the Minister of Agriculture in England and the Secretary of State for Scotland in Scotland, I am moving the amendment because we would like to be quite sure that there is a statutory obligation on the Secretary of State to consult with the two Ministries when he is appointing, as he will be, the committees which this clause deals with.
The advisory committees which he is to appoint have obvious connections with agriculture. They have a dual responsibility both to the Ministry of Agriculture and to the Scottish Office—to the Secretary of State for Scotland. All that we have been discussing in connection with birds, animals and so on, has repercussions on agriculture: production and growing of crops and so on. It is most important that these advisory committees should include representatives from the two important Ministries that I have mentioned.
I have the feeling that possibly the Government may say, "Well, of course, the Ministers will be consulted. The Secretary of State could not appoint advisory committees that did not have representatives from these two departments ". But I do not think that that is enough. It is important that there should he a statutory obligation that on these advisory committees there should be direct representation of these two departments: in England, the Ministry of Agriculture, and in Scotland,the Secretary of State. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: I think that in point of fact we have given this matter quite a good airing today. I believe that all the arrangements envisaged by these amendments already exist and will continue to do so. We have already said that both the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State are working together on all these matters with the help of the NCC. This amendment causes a slightly unhappy result in terms of drafting, because while the term "Secretary of State" is not limited to enable the Secretary of State for the Environment specifically to act, the reference to the Minister of Agriculture, which it would be coupled with, would be limited to that Minister alone.
As I said when speaking to earlier amendments, the advisory body is now to be the NCC and the Department of the Environment will consult with them and all departments including MAFF who have an interest. I do not know whether that satisfies my noble friend.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood: I thank my noble friend for that reply. However to me the idea that they will be consulted without writing it into the Bill means that it is something which can be avoided. I think that it would he better if, when considering these matters, the noble Lord looked at it again to see whether or not it could not be a statutory obligation on the Secretary of State for the Environment to have representatives from those two departments, and I particularly press the Scottish representative for Scotland.
Lord Melchett: It occurs to me that those who have, as I do, the interests of agriculture at heart are trying to have their cake and eat it. We have already had the MAFF issuing licences; endless exclusions both in emergency and under licence for agricultural operations, and no obligation to consult the NCC in

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all this. Now there must be an obligation written in to consult MAFF or DAS. I wonder whether this is not pushing it a bit too far. For example, I would be interested to know from the noble Baroness how many agricultural Acts of Parliament and Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts have requirements written into them that the NCC, the wildlife bodies and those interested in the conservation of wildlife should be consulted before grants arc given, before things are set out; that they will all be represented on every advisory body that the Ministry of Agriculture sets up for whatever purpose. If we are going to be fair and everybody is to be represented on everybody else's committees, then let us have it both ways. But if that is not to be the case, then I would suggest with the Government that this is left as it is.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: I could tell the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, that on quite a few occasions the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State act jointly, not only in this Bill but in the Local Government Bill as well. Here under Clause 15 they act jointly and it seems to me that perhaps it would be more logical that if they act jointly in Clause 15 they should act jointly to appoint those bodies who are going to advise them. It is not a vitally important point, but there is a definite precedent for it and I think for them to be seen to be consulting with the Minister of Agriculture may help a little. There is certainly a precedent for it.
Lord Melchett: My question was whether there are agricultural Acts where the Secretary of State for the Environment and the Minister of Agriculture act jointly to appoint advisers to agricultural advisory bodies. The noble Lord is saying that in a Wildlife Bill there should be that provision the other way round. I am simply asking for a bit of equity.
The Earl of Caithness: I think that the noble Lord has misled the Committee unintentionally again when he referred to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food not having to take the advice of the NCC. In fact, it clearly states in Clause 15(9)—he was referring to licences at the time—that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Secretary of State shall from time to time consult. So that point must now be cleared up to the Committee's satisfaction.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood: I hope that the Government will think about this. I have no idea how many of the various societies to which the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, referred are on statutory bodies. My point was really that as regards anything of this kind which affects agriculture the Ministers concerned should be consulted. There are a lot of things about which they do not need to be consulted, but on these particular matters, they do need to be consulted. Although I shall not press the amendment, I hope that the Government will think about the matter as something which, so to speak, completes the picture in a fairer manner.
The Earl of Onslow: Before my noble friend withdraws the amendment, I think that we have had evidence
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of land use anyway, because the Department of the Environment on some issues, especially road building—I know that this is a bit of a red herring—has been slightly lax in consulting the Ministry of Agriculture. I am sure that with the assurance which my noble friend has given, and bearing that small point in mind, there will be normal and reasonable consultation.
Baroness Elliot of Harwood: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 346 to 346D not moved.]
Baroness David Baroness David moved Amendment No. 346E:
Page 20, line 21, after (" it ") insert (" and on any question on which it considers it should offer its advice ").
The noble Baroness said: This is a very simple amendment to which I hope the Government will agree. It makes this advisory business a two-way affair. It need not necessarily be the Secretary of State just summoning the advisory body, but when the advisory body feels like it, it can approach him with suggestions, and so on. I do not think that I need say any more. It is a very straightforward amendment. and it seems to me to be very sensible.
Lord Craigton: I should like to support the amendment. It is a very important point. If the advisory body thinks that something ought to be said to the Secretary of State, it ought to have statutory power to do so. Any one of us who knows about advisory bodies knows that they will be hampered unless they have this power. I very much support this amendment.
The Earl of Avon: This amendment would enable an advisory body not only to give advice on any question pertaining to the protection of birds upon which its opinion had been sought, but also upon any such matter upon which it may feel it should profer advice. Although there is a provision similar to this in the Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976 which when I quoted it to the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, he said was not a good thing—but slightly more recently, when it became more profitable to him, he rather enjoyed it more—there has not been one in a Protection of Birds Act.
However, I doubt whether this has ever stopped the advisory committees on the protection of birds from giving the advice that they thought should be given and whether the advisory bodies, which will operate under the Bill when enacted, will be so prevented. There will always be some means of the advisory body injecting the advice requested of it. However, there may well be some value in this being written into the Bill and so, if the Government may, we will take it away and arrange for a Government amendment at a later stage.
Lord Melchett: That is marvellous. Perhaps I could put the record straight. The Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act was a marvellous Act, but from time to time its implementation by the Department of the Environment has not been all that we had hoped. However, I am sure that it is improving all the time,

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particularly with the noble Earl, Lord Avon, there to look after our interests.
Baroness David: I am grateful for that response. I think it is a pity that it could not be accepted right away, but we will take the next best thing. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 347:
Page 20, line 25, leave out subsection (5) and insert—
(" (5) An advisory body established under subsection (i)(a) shall publish reports relating to the performance by it of its duty under subsection (4).").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 347. This would leave out subsection (5) and redraft it, simply in order to establish that an advisory body should publish reports relating to the performance of its duties under subsection (4); in other words, it should publish a report of the advice that it has given the Secretary of State on any question which the Secretary of State has referred to the advisory body. I hope that everyone will see the advantage of these advisory bodies producing some published reports which all of us can see so that we know what advice they have given, and what use is being made of them by the Secretary of State, the Ministry of Agriculture or whoever it might happen to be, and that it should not be a matter of discretion whether people publish information but—and I hope that this is now accepted both by my party and the party opposite, although neither of us has done much about it so far—that we can encourage open government and put a duty on people to produce reports so that we all know what they are up to. I beg to move.
The Earl of Onslow: I should very much like to support the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, on this particular issue. It seems to me that on the whole British Governments are obsessed with secrecy and with not allowing things to be published. The temptation to murmur "confidentiality" et cetera on this will overtake some civil servant as night follows day and he will advise his Minister accordingly. Whether the greater blue winged bustard, or whatever it may be, is actually protected or what advice he is given on its protection cannot be anything other than satisfactorily be kept in the open . After all, there is nothing secret about it and I would strongly recommend my noble friend to accept this amendment.
Lord Craigton: I should also like to support this amendment. I was thinking that there may be a matter of expense, but the report could be very short and still be informative. Unless we have reports of this sort, those of us in the conservation world —I nearly said industry—will find it much more difficult to do our work.
The Earl of Avon: Although I cannot go along with my noble friends, when I have completed my reply I think that they will realise that this is not necessary. The responsibility for advisory bodies rests with the department, including the publishing of any report prepared by these bodies. But Government would not wish to accept that the Executive's hands should
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be tied over what is required to be published, which would be the effect of the amendment.
However, we have a duty to report annually to the European Commission, and that report will be published. Furthermore, the Nature Conservancy Council, which, as I announced in opening the Second Reading debate, the Government intend shall take over the duties of the Advisory Committee on the Protection of Birds and the Scientific Authority for Animals, is statutorily required to publish an annual report. Therefore, I think that we cover all the situations which are likely to occur, and with that clarification I hope that the noble Lord may be prepared to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: Parts of that reply seem extremely satisfactory with regard to the number of reports which will be published. But I should like to ask why the Secretary of State's hands should not be tied in order to publish something. The noble Earl did not produce a single reason why this should not happen. It seems to me to be a very good idea. However, I suppose that it is not all that germane, as the other alternative arrangements are satisfactory. It is exactly typical of what the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, was saying; Governments saying, "We must not have our hands tied by having to publish material for the benefit of the public ". It is an instinctive reaction, and it is to be deprecated.
Lord Craigton: As I understood it my noble friend on the Front Bench said, "That is all right. They don't have to publish the report because the information will be given elsewhere, or in some other way ". If that were so then surely it should have been made, "publish or cause to be published ", rather than they themselves publishing. I still was not very satisfied by the noble Earl's reply.
Lord Melchett: I had exactly the same worry as the noble Lord, Lord Craigton. These advisory bodies are now going to be set up and serviced by the NCC. The Nature Conservancy Council produces an excellent annual report as the noble Earl, Lord Avon, said, but it is already fairly lengthy and has I do not know how many endless appendices at the back, with a lot of technical and detailed stuff in them. I cannot see how they can possibly include it in that, unless it is going to be a great deal lengthier and more costly to produce detailed reports of all these advisory bodies' activities and the advice that they have given. The NCC's annual report, well produced, a glossy report with a colour cover and high quality paper seems totally the wrong vehicle for it. The sort of thing one would imagine these advisory committees producing would be a typewritten document which would simply be duplicated for those who are particularly interested, and would contain details of the questions that have been referred to them and the advice they have given on those questions. We are talking about a totally different vehicle. I hope that the noble Earl may look at that point again.
The earlier part of his assurance that the report that the Government have to make to the EEC will be published was very welcome indeed, and I am grateful for that, although I suspect that if the Government had

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not published it the EEC would, but I do not want to be so churlish as to make any such suggestion. I hope that the noble Earl will look at this question of the advisory committees again, because I cannot believe that the NCC's annual report is the right place for them to have their activities reported on.
The Earl of Onslow: Paragraph (a) of this Clause says, "may establish any body or bodies …". It seems to me that the amount of bodies that can be established is so wide and so varied that they can go down to advising on some very limited and fairly local aspects. Under those circumstances I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, that their reports should not just be tagged on and make the NCC's report that much bigger.
The Earl of Avon: I rather suspect that we may not have thought through how what may become the two sub-societies will report. I think we can take on board what the noble Lord has said and see to it, but I do not honestly think it need be written into this Bill in this way.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: What the noble Earl said a few moments ago about tying the hands of the Executive because an advisory committee is commissioned to make its report public is going, around Ministers somewhat like a password. We heard this also in connection with the Protection of Laboratory Animals Bill. Since when have Ministers been afraid of advice, and since when need they be afraid of the publication of the advice they get? We ate supposed to be in favour of more open government, but really and truly what Ministers seem to want is not open government but open and shut government.
I hope that we arc not going to hear this legend throughout all our proceedings when we suggest an advisory committee. Advisory committees are good things to have. They help Ministers make up their minds, although on the whole it is not advice that Ministers need so much as willpower. If you ask a civil servant what he wants from a Minister, he says "decisions". That suggests that they have great difficulty in getting them from Ministers at times. I do not want to delay the Committee, but it rang a bell when I heard those words, having heard them before more than once in connection with the Protection of Laboratory Animals Bill, and I have no doubt that we are going to hear them further. I have not mentioned the word "quango" yet, but I do not think we shall want to prejudice the proceedings by introducing that.
The Earl of Onslow: They are protected under Schedule 1.
Lord Melchett: I do not think we ought to spend too long on this because the hour is getting late and all of us want to make progress. I do not think anybody is entirely happy with what the noble Earl has said, except possibly the officials who wrote the brief for him, and I hope they will have been shamed into changing their advice before we reach the next stage of the Bill. There is not very much in this, but there is a point that does require further attention. If the
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noble Earl cannot address his mind to it between now and Report stage, we shall try to put down an amendment which meets the point, but I hope that the Government may be able to give us some further assurance which will make that unnecessary. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 347A, 347AA and 347B not moved.]
9.14 p.m.
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 348:
Page 20, line 30, at end insert (", including a person or persons appearing to the Secretary of State to be representative of voluntary organisations interested in wildlife conservation.").
The noble Lord said: This raises another quite small point. I hope it could be made clear in the Bill that the voluntary organisations interested in wildlife conservation will be consulted before a person is appointed to an advisory body established under subsection (1)(a). As noble Lords will know, some concern has been expressed at the thought of the NCC taking over the role of setting up these advisory bodies. We have had certain assurances, but I suggest it would go a long way towards reassuring the voluntary movement—even if there were a change of heart on the part of those at present in the NCC, and I am sure we have every confidence in them—if the Bill made it clear that the voluntary movement would be consulted as well as the NCC having a role to play. After all, at the moment to some extent the advisory committees are seen as holding a slightly central position between on the one hand the Government's statutory advisers, the NCC, and on the other the voluntary conservation movement with the millions of people throughout the country who are members of those organisations and whom they represent. That will no longer be the case because the advisory bodies will come under the NCC. I suggest, therefore, that the reassurance I seek would be useful to have in the Bill. I am sure it is already catered for but that does not remove the importance of including it in the Bill.
The Earl of Avon: One of the features of the advisory bodies, which have been so valuable in making the working of the Protection of Birds Acts as effective as they have been, is the range of experience and interest of their members; conservationists, protectionists, farmers, aviculturists and many other groups of people concerned with and affected by birds, have known that the Advisory Committees on the Protection of Birds look at matters not with a sectional or limited view but to achieve a right balance between the many competing and proper concerns in our community.
We feel it would be quite wrong to select for express mention only the voluntary organisations interested in wildlife preservation. At the same time, it does not seem necessary to include a long list of bodies whose claim to be consulted is already recognised. Any attempt at an exhaustive list would of course prejudice the position of relevant bodies who do not yet exist but who may come into being in the future. While, therefore, we are in sympathy with, and intend to carry out the meaning of the amendment, we should prefer it not to be pressed.
Lord Melchett: That sounded like an explicit assurance. I should like to see it in black and white in Hansard before expressing my gratitude to the noble Earl too fulsomely, but I think he has met the point I wished to make and for the time being I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.17 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 21 shall stand part of the Bill?
The Earl of Cranbrook: I wish to express a small measure of disquiet in so far as this clause is expressly concerned with birds. I recognise, first, that the Bill re-enacts the Protection of Birds Acts and, secondly, that there is a European Community directive on wild birds, but I have previously sought assurance, in particularly when we were discussing Clause 15, that the conditions of licensing exceptions to Clause 9 animals, those coming under Schedule 5, should be treated with the same consideration as those relating to birds.
My noble friend Lord Avon mentioned that under the European Community's birds directive there is a requirement for an annual report. I note that under the Berne Convention, which can be taken as the only international document which supports conservation activities for animals other than birds, the report is requested once every two years and not once a year, so there is an anomaly here. There has been good mention of the Wild Birds Advisory Committee and of its satisfactory functioning and brief mention has been made of the Scientific Authority for Animals, but I am not at all clear whether that authority will be an advisory body under the same terms for animals other than birds. I would remind the Committee that animals other than birds far exceed birds in number and that some of the conservation problems which they face are in many cases as yet unknown to us and are therefore uncharted. I would therefore seek a certain degree of assurance from my noble friend the Minister on this point.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: Although it is a much more minor point, I should like to know whether subsection (6) means anything at all. Presumably, even if it were not included in the Bill, the Secretary of State would be able to "consult such persons or bodies" as be thought fit. With that subsection included in the Bill, as I see it, he need not consult any persons or bodies if he does not see fit. Has the subsection any purpose whatever?
The Earl of Avon: I should like to read what my noble friend Lord Cranbrook said, since I am not absolutely certain that what I am going to say covers his point entirely. The Nature Conservancy Council will be the overall body—I hesitate to say, "mother body"—which will be looking after the Scientific Authority for Animals, and to that extent anything which applies in Clause 21 would of course apply equally to the Scientific Authority for Animals through the NCC. If that is not entirely what my noble friend was getting at, I shall read his speech and let him know.
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Clause 21(6) is concerned with appointing a member to the advisory body. It allows the Secretary of State to consult whom he wishes in order to find someone actually to sit on the body.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: He can do that, anyway.
The Earl of Avon: Now he can do it twice.
Lord Melchett: That question is not quite as important as the point that the noble Earl, Lord Cranbrook, raised. I should be interested to hear what the noble Earl on the Government Front Bench has to say to his noble friend after he has read his noble friend's speech. It would be very helpful for us to know whether we are talking about simply the question of the Scientific Authority for Animals being reconstituted by the NCC, or whether there are to be dramatic changes in membership involving the range of people on the body. I do not expect an answer at the moment, but I think that that was at least part of what the noble Earl was getting at. If the noble Earl on the Government Front Bench is to consider that, I wonder whether he can let us know, too, of his deliberations.
The Earl of Avon: I gladly undertake to do that.
Clause 21 agreed to.
Clause 22 [Functions of Nature Conservancy Council]:
Baroness David Baroness David moved Amendment No. 349:
Page 20, line 35, leave out from (" shall ") to second (" and ") in line 36 and insert (" five years after the passing of this Act ").
The noble Baroness said: As it stands, the Nature Conservancy Council has an obligation 10 years after the passing of the Conservation of Wild Creatures and Wild Plants Act 1975, and every five years thereafter, to review Schedules 5 and 7. The amendment proposes that the review should be made five years after the passing of this Bill. That would not mean that the review would be made at a very different time; in fact, it would be made only a year later. The Conservation of Wild Creatures and Wild Plants Act 1975 is to be repealed by this Bill, and we shall have new schedules after the enacting of the Bill. Therefore, it would seem to be rather tidier and more logical to make the requirement dependent on this Bill, rather than on the old Act which is to be repealed. I beg to move.
The Earl of Onslow: I would hope that the schedules will be kept constantly under review. Things can suddenly become endangered for some reason which we cannot foresee. The noble Lord, Lord Melchett, spoke about this earlier. We have had before us the example of the Egyptian collared dove which at one moment was totally non-existent and the next moment was a complete pest species. It is very important to keep the schedules constantly under review because if the review takes place only every five years, there will be a temptation to sit hack and say, "Oh, well, we need do nothing about it for another five years". That is just a thought, for what it is worth.
The Earl of Avon: I think that perhaps my noble friend's point could be covered by the fact that we can

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amend the schedules at any time, and all species will really be kept under review. With regard to the amendment of the noble Baroness, I do not think that there is anything here that the Government would wish to oppose. The effect of this amendment as the noble Baroness said, would be to delay the next mandatory report required from the Nature Conservancy Council to 1986, when otherwise it would happen in 1985. But I am sure, as the noble Baroness said, we could live with the delay for a year, particularly as it is open to the NCC to advise the Secretary of State at any time. Unfortunately, the amendment refers to the "passing" of the Act. This is inconsistent with Clause 54(2), which provides for the Act to be brought into force by commencement order. I will undertake that the Government will put down a suitable amendment at Report stage, and I hope that with that undertaking the noble Baroness will be prepared to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness David: I am very grateful for that response and in view of it I will withdraw this amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 350 not moved.]
9.27 p.m.
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 351:
Page 20, line 37, after (" and ") insert (", after consulting a person or persons appearing to the Nature Conservancy Council to be representative of voluntary organisations interested in wildlife conservation,").
The noble Lord said: In view of the fact that Amendment No. 350 has been withdrawn from the Marshalled List, I beg to move Amendment No. 351. This amendment is on a very similar point to the one I made earlier, but I hope it still has rather more merit than the previous amendment to subsection (6), which the noble Earl did not accept. This would ensure that, in carrying out the quinquennial reviews of the schedules to this Bill—and they have an important status as formal reviews of the schedules, as opposed to the constant monitoring which the noble Earl mentioned—the NCC would consult people from the voluntary sector who are interested in this question. I think this undoubtedly would be the practice of the NCC, but again, it would be a us eful reassurance to the many people in the voluntary movement who are watching the progress of this Bill with great interest that they would have the opportunity in five years' time to have another say. I hope, too, that the Government might occasionally be seized of the advantages of giving some such reassurance to the voluntary sector, which I have always understood this particular Government were rather keener on than they have appeared to be during the passage of this Bill. I beg to move.
Lord Craigton: I should like to support this amendment. Just now we are very great friends with the NCC, but this Bill has got to last a very long time and the NCC fluctuates up and down according to the amount of money allowed them by the Government or the personnel who are running the department. On the whole, the conservation bodies are fairly satis-96
fied at the moment—very satisfied—with the cooperation of the NCC, but taking the long view (and this Bill has to last a long time) I believe this is a most worthwhile insertion into the Bill, and I very much support the amendment.
The Earl of Avon: The noble Lord, Lord Melchett, is quite right when he says we like voluntary bodies, but we also like giving people a free hand and not putting too many obligations into a Bill. As the noble Lord is well aware, and as my noble friend behind me has just said, the Nature Conservancy Council at the moment consults individual experts, scientific bodies and voluntary organisations with the relevant knowledge. I am advised that the NCC, in arriving at its advice to the Secretary of State, already consults all these experts possessing relevant knowledge, and is indeed greatly dependent upon and appreciates the advice so freely given. We consider that a statutory requirement for the council to consult voluntary organisations interested in wildlife conservation to be unnecessary, and that the extent and manner of consultation carried out by the council before giving its advice to the Secretary of State is a matter which can safely be left to the council's discretion. In this we would prefer, as one of my noble friends behind me said earlier, to trust the NCC. I hope that my noble friend Lord Craigton will agree, and that the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, will not wish to press this particular point.
Lord Craigton: I do not entirely agree with the noble Earl because, as he himself said, at the moment the NCC consults. That is quite true, but there will be other moments before this Bill is changed, and I should still be much happier to see something of this nature in the Bill.
The Earl of Avon: Perhaps I could say quickly to my noble friend that under the clause that we have just been discussing, the advisory bodies are very much working with the Secretary of State. If he found that the advice coming was not correct, then he would have ways and means of changing it.
Lord Melchett: I am not happy. It seems to me to reflect the double standards that run through this. As the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, pointed out, we have a paragraph in the previous clause which says that the Secretary of State may, if he thinks fit, consult people that he is already at liberty to consult. It adds nothing. We are quite happy to see that in the Bill applying to the Secretary of State. When it comes to asking the NCC to consult the voluntary organisations, all of a sudden, we must trust them, we must not put anything in the Bill to tie their hands or even imply that they are not going to do this. They may or may not do it.
The Government of the noble Earl's party is in power at the moment. I might not like the people that his Government appoint to the NCC. I might not trust them to consult the voluntary organisations. I suppose it is possible that at some point in the future we on these Benches might be sitting where the noble Earl now sits. We might appoint people to the NCC that

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he would not trust to consult the voluntary organisations Would it not make both of us happier if there were in the Bill a provision such as that proposed?
My other point—one which the noble Earl did not touch on but which I think deserves consideration—is that just occasionally during the passage of this Bill, perhaps once every two or three weeks, the Government might consider allowing the voluntary organisations to have some reassurance actually written into the Bill. We are allowing all sorts of reassurance to appear for other interest groups and, in particular, the agriculturists from whom we have heard a lot during the day, particularly on licensing. For them reassurances and escape clauses have been written in; and we have to some extent agreed with that. But from time to time there should be a little "give" from the Government in the other direction.
This is not a major request. It is not going to alter existing practice; it simply gives an assurance for the future. One would hope, in a spirit of compromise, and in that of making rapid progress, that the Government could have given us some assurance from time to time. This seems to be the one eminently suitable for it.
Baroness White: May I support what has been said by my noble friend? I am sure that Members in all parts of the Committee will recognise that voluntary organisations do not have vast resources at their disposal. In fact, at the present time, with inflation, it is extremely difficult for some of them to maintain even the very small supporting staff they have to work with. As their name implies, voluntary organisations are mainly voluntary. A few of them can afford to employ absolutely basic staff, but no more. If they are not called into consultation, it is very difficult for them to keep track of what is going on.
As your Lordships know, I speak primarily from Welsh experience. Anybody who knows anything about the Principality will realise that there may be a matter of considerable concern in one part of Wales which is not necessarily known, even to the NCC officers, in other parts of Wales. The NCC headquarters in Wales is at Bangor. There may be an acute problem in, say, Gwent, and it may be that the regional officer is aware of it, but not necessarily so. I know that there is considerable feeling among the voluntary organisations that there are situations in which they are not consulted unless they happen to hear what is going on and are then able to pursue such crumbs of information as they may be able to obtain. When they do that, they normally have the warmest co-operation, but it puts a great strain on the voluntary bodies if all the time they have to take the initiative themselves.
The Earl of Cranbrook: May I pick up a phrase from the noble Baroness and assert with confidence that unless the NCC—however vastly it may spread, however enormous its army of research workers may become, and whatever funds may be given it—keeps in close touch with the voluntary bodies, the NCC itself will be unable to keep track of what is happening to the wildlife in this country. It is the voluntary bodies who have their ears to the ground, their noses to the grindstone, or whatever one may call it. These voluntary bodies
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themselves are out there witnessing what is happening to the wildlife of this country.
The Earl of Avon: We are quite happy to consider this amendment. There is no problem on that at all. I was vaguely turning over in my mind some of the remarks which the noble Baroness made. There are so many voluntary organisations that one cannot tell whether the one which she had in mind might be spoken to at that time. We shall certainly have a look at this and see whether we can write anything in.
Lord Melchett: I am most grateful to the noble Earl, Members of the Committee and the noble Baroness who supported the amendment when it looked as if it might sink without trace. The Government have agreed to consider it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 352 not moved.]
9.36 p.m.
Lord Craigton Lord Craigton moved Amendment No. 353:
Page 21, line 7, at end insert—
(" (4) It shall be the duty of the Council to investigate offences under this Part and the Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976 or any Order or Regulations made under those enactments, and to advise and assist the Police and the Commissioners of Customs and Excise in the enforcement by them of those provisions.").
The noble Lord said: I am most concerned that this Bill makes no provision for the proper investigation of offences against this most comprehensive and excellent legislation. Could we not be at risk of being accused of just paying lip service to wildlife protection and conservation by omitting from our legislation provision for the investigation of infringements of highly specialised Acts?
At present, the investigation and pursuance of offences falls largely on the voluntary bodies and, in particular, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. Without the efforts of the RSPB and the RSPCA, little or no meaningful enforcement of wildlife legislation would occur. This is not a criticism of the police or customs officers, it is just that they have not the time and the necessary technical knowledge to investigate. When an offence is brought to the knowledge of the police or customs by voluntary bodies, they are prepared to act. I wonder whether anyone thinks that that is a satisfactory situation.
The RSPB and the RSPCA are charities and such organisations are not well off. Being non-statutory bodies, they have no access to official records, but they have become the main investigating bodies for offences under our existing wildlife legislation. Each year they take a considerable number of prosecutions, which I believe demonstrates that these laws need enforcing.
Here are some of the major prosecutions over the past nine months: three Welshmen fined a total of £600 for wilfully disturbing peregrine falcons; a Sunderland man fined £500 for being in possession of two recently-taken peregrine falcons; two Yorkshiremen fined a total of £1,420 on two occasions for taking the eggs of wild birds including those of a golden eagle; a Cumbrian man fined a total of £210 for selling wild birds, and a London man fined £270 for trapping wild birds.
In all this work, the Nature Conservancy Council takes no active role in investigations as do its counterparts in the USA, New Zealand and Australia. The Nature Conservancy Council could be a tremendous help. Under the amendment, the NCC is charged with the duty of investigating offences under the new Bill and of assisting the customs and police. I know that money is short; I know the difficulties. What I want to ask the Minister to do and what I say is this: let us get the authority on to this Bill. The NCC, once this amendment is in the Bill, will do the best it can within the staff and financial limits that it has. Let us get this into the Bill now and give the NCC the powers. When times are better, we shall get this Bill much better enforced in the country. I beg to move.
Lord Melcheft: It might speed up matters, which I know we are all anxious to do, if I speak to our Amendment No. 354 at the same time as Amendment No. 353 because it covers exactly the same point but in slightly more detail. Indeed, part of my Amendment No. 463, which will be coming later, would place an obligation on the Nature Conservancy Council to enforce offences and perhaps it might be convenient if we were to take that particular bit of Amendment No. 463 at the same time.
I do not wish to add much to what the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, has said in so ably moving this amendment. It seems to me something of a scandal that, although we were speaking a moment ago so highly of the efforts of voluntary organisations, we should rely in this country on two royal societies, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, in effect to enforce the bulk of our wildlife legislation. This is not a task to which voluntary organisations are suited in this country or anywhere else. Regretfully, we must face the fact that a number of countries, and in particular the United States, have wildlife enforcement agencies which do the job a great deal more effectively, inevitably, than voluntary organisations in this country can because of their very limited resources of staff and their lack of legal powers. I do not think that any of us are being unrealistic enough to think that we are going to get a new wildlife enforcement agency set up by the Government next week with a staff of a couple of hundred, with adequate finance and legal powers, and so on. I know that would fly in the face of the Government's mistaken policy in these matters. What I think it is fair to ask the Government to do when they bring forward a major Bill on wildlife and the countryside—the first Government Bill we have ever had on this sort of subject and certainly by far the most comprehensive ever dealt with by the British Parliament—is at least to make a gentle nod in the direction of effective enforcement of the legislation they have introduced.
I think the general consensus of all of us who have thought about this is that the right organisation to do this would be the NCC. They could do it very simply to start with. The RSPB, which is responsible for so much marvellous enforcement of the Protection of Birds Acts, does it with a staff of four or five people and an expenditure of very little money. That is all that one would expect of the NCC—that they should
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be enforcing this legislation simply, to start with, by investigating offences and gathering information. I hope that some of these amendments on enforcement will commend themselves to the Government.
Lord Chelwood: I am not at all happy about these amendments. Certainly I think they are well meant and I understand the reasoning behind them, but I think they are mistaken and should be resisted.
The Nature Conservancy Council shares all the concern that has been expressed during the debates on this Bill on Committee stage and Second Reading. It is greatly concerned about the enforcement of hard-won legislation to safeguard wildlife; but these amendments would place on the NCC functions and duties which are not in keeping with the Council's essential role, their statutory role, of giving science-based advice on nature conservation.
Enforcement needs to be tackled by a combination of effort by the official agencies—the police, Customs and Excise, the NCC and the voluntary movements, the RSPB and the RSPCA, to whose work in this field I pay a genuine and glowing tribute, the Society for the Promotion of Nature Conservation, which does good work as well in all the counties in this country, and other appropriate bodies. The public at large also have an important responsibility to obey the law, to observe it and to try to do their best to ensure that others observe it as well.
The NCC are doing much more in this field than is perhaps generally realised. Within their existing scientific and advisory remit, they prepare general and specialist advice for Customs and Excise, including producing some very well-drafted technical manuals. They have set up a series of referral networks, as I think I can best call them, of experts on whom the police and Customs and Excise can, and do, call. They have arranged, and will continue to arrange, for police forces to be trained in the wildlife laws—that is, specially chosen people—and they are also, of course, giving wide publicity to the law as it stands at present, and as it will stand after this Bill becomes an Act, so that the public can take heed of the law. The NCC's staff on the ground are under instruction to report offences which they observe, or which they are reliably informed about. They are ready to bring prosecutions if they think that the police have failed to do so and should have done so.
But more important than what I have said so far is the sticking point which comes, in my view, when it is proposed—and I am rolling these three amendments together—that the NCC must be responsible for enforcement, for investigations, for appointing wildlife policemen and for gathering information on offences. All these things are proposed in these three amendments that we are discussing together. Taking on the wider role envisaged by the amendments would be a great burden on our already overstretched resources. Our resources are stretched to the limit. It is all very well for some of my noble friends, and for noble Lords opposite, to say "Give them some more money". We would dearly like it, but we do not see it coming just at present, in spite of the goodwill that we have from the Secretary of State.
To enforce the law would he prejudicial to the NCC's role as advisers to public bodies, to landowners and

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to individuals. Our position is, perhaps, analogous to that of ADAS who, I believe, have consistently sought to confine their role to that of giving advice and assistance to farmers, rather than becoming concerned with enforcement issues related to cruelty to animals and animal health.
In conclusion—perhaps this is a glimpse of the obvious, and I hope I may be forgiven for it—passing laws that cannot be properly enforced is really deplorable and a foolish exercise. Enforcement of wildlife legislation, as I am the first to admit and agree, is very far from adequate. I greatly regret this and so does the NCC. There is a need, I think—I have always thought so from my RSPB days, when I used to be president— for a small specialist wildlife investigation and enforcement unit with real statutory powers, probably under the aegis of the Department of the Environment. We are not going to have one just yet; certainly not next week, as the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, said. It is badly needed and I hope that it will come soon. Meanwhile, all we can do is to make more strenuous efforts to co-ordinate the work of voluntary and official bodies, in which the NCC will play their full part. This will have to serve, even though it is second best. I hope that these amendments will be resisted.
9.48 p.m.
The Earl of Avon: We are very happy with the principles raised by my noble friend Lord Craigton, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Milverton, and we are pleased that they accept the principle that the police and customs are the proper enforcement agencies for the provisions in this Bill and in the 1976 Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act. We are also receptive to the concept of the Nature Conservancy Council investigating alleged offences. The council already provides advice towards these ends and we see it playing an increasing part in doing so.
Where we differ from the views reflected in the amendment proposed by my noble friend is in the need to enshrine the involvement of the NCC in the legislation. My noble friend Lord Chelwood has spoken to this in some depth. Our view, and that of the council, is that this would unduly restrict their role. They do not wish to have some of their activities listed as duties and some as functions. They wish to retain their ability to make their own decisions. The Government were made well aware, during the extensive consultations before this Bill was drafted, that many protectionists and conservationists would favour the kind of wildlife enforcement service which the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, requires. Representations were also made to the Royal Commission on Criminal Procedure.
We have had to consider two questions: first, is the present principle, that the police and custom are the official enforcement agencies, unsound; and, secondly, how can we best improve enforcement? The Government consider that the creation of a specialist enforcement agency could not be justified and that, in any event, it would certainly be wrong to confer on it all the powers of the police. That leaves us with looking for ways of improving the ability of the police and the Customs and Excise to carry out their duties, and here we see the NCC playing an
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important role in providing supportive expertise. Liaison by the Nature Conservancy Council with the Home Office, the police and customs is much improved. Training assistance is being developed. The Nature Conservancy Council as well as the Department of the Environment keeps lists of experts.
Finally, throughout the Bill we have tried to make the evasion of the law harder and its detection easier. A certain amendment passed earlier today enforces this, perhaps more than I thought. For offences of this kind, which by their nature occur in out of the way places, the most important enforcement aid is the general public, particularly those members of it who are deeply committed to wildlife, whether as bird watchers, falconers, aviculturalists or simply as countrymen who accept the responsibility for our marvellous heritage of wildlife. By regulating and so protecting their interests this Bill gives to the adherents new incentives to ensure that the unscrupulous minority does not get away with it. I hope that the noble Lord will not wish to press his amendment.
Lord Craigton: From the length of the noble Earl's reply it is quite clear that here we have a very difficult point. I do not feel that I could ask the Committee to divide upon it. I will read what the noble Earl has said and think about it before the next stage. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.52 p.m.
Baroness David Baroness David moved Amendment No. 354:
Page 21, line 7, at end insert—
(" (4) The Council shall appoint such wildlife enforcement officers as they deem expedient for the purpose of enforcing the provisions of this Part and of the Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976 and of any orders or regulations made under those enactments.
(5) For the enforcement of the provisions referred to in subsection (4) above every such officer shall be deemed to be a constable and to have the same powers and privileges and be subject to the same liabilities as a constable duly appointed has and is subject to at common law or by statute.
(6) After section (1)(a)(iv) of the Nature Conservancy Council Act 1973 (which concerns the functions of the Council) there shall be inserted the following sub-paragraph—
" (v) the enforcement of the provisions of Part I of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1980 and of the Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976 and of any orders or regulations made under those enactments, and ".").
The noble Baroness said: My noble friend Lord Melchett has already spoken to this amendment, which I beg to move. At the same time I shall answer a few of the points which have been made by the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, and by the Minister.
I hope that we all agree that this Bill will be of no use unless the enforcement measures work. It will be just a piece of window dressing. Therefore we must have efficient enforcement. From what has been said it is clear that the Nature Conservancy Council does not want to take on this job of enforcement. However, may I remind the Committee that similar bodies to the Nature Conservancy Council—the wildlife departments of North America, Australia, New Zealand and many other countries—do take on this job?
It seems to me that the Nature Conservancy Council participates in all conservation matters except for

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investigations and enforcement work. The fact that it is not so involved sometimes undermines its credibility with the voluntary nature conservation bodies and even with the police and customs, who sometimes use the voluntary bodies after being told by the Nature Conservancy Council that it cannot help. It seems illogical to suggest that investigations and enforcement responsibility will detract from the scientific work of the Nature Conservancy Council. That seems to me to depend on the research work which it does. I appreciate that the Nature Conservancy Council cannot afford it on its present budget, but somebody has got to pay for enforcement if we are agreed that enforcement is important and must be carried out. So it seems to me that resources could be given to the Nature Conservancy Council as well as to any other body.
To go back in history for a minute or two, I should like to remind the Committee of the support for the wildlife bodies taking on this duty. First may I refer to Cmnd. 7122, Conservation of Nature in England and Wales, July 1947. This was the report of the Wildlife Conservation Special Committee, chaired by Sir Julian Huxley, most of whose recommendations, such as the establishment of a biological service, were contained in the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949. That committee considered the whole question of the enforcement of existing legislation and of any new wildlife legislation which it considered should be enacted. There were then very few acts on the statute book protecting wildlife, but the report had this to say:
"Where police action is necessary, we consider that reliance should be placed on the ordinary police rather than on wardens or other officers with special wildlife conservation enforcement functions".
Remember that then the full complexity of wildlife legislation was still over 30 years away. The Committee went on:
"except in national nature reserves where enforcement powers exercisable by the responsible officers would be essential".
Then I should like to look at a later point, the evidence which the Nature Conservancy gave to the Royal Commission on the Police in 1961. Virtually everything in its evidence supports what has been said today, particularly over the difficulties which the average police officer has in attempting to enforce wildlife legislation. I quote:
"Offences which most often occur in unfrequented places, especially on land where there is no right of access, obviously present special enforcement difficulties to any police force. So also do offences which can only be detected or dealt with on a basis of highly specialised knowledge or training, and offences which are normally committed by exceptionally active mobile persons. Where all three of these factors are combined an all-purpose, conventional police force heavily burdened with more pressing claims is at a maximum disadvantage".
They continue by saying that in such circumstances,
"… it becomes difficult to avoid the situation in which the law and the police are brought into contempt".
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The Nature Conservancy reviewed in its evidence the inadequate enforcement of wildlife legislation at that time, and concluded by offering four suggestions, one of these being the provision of specialist enforcement officers. I quote:
"mention must be made of a solution, widely adopted in other advanced countries, of having a corps of specialist enforcement officers in the form of mobile wardens or rangers".
Analogies were then drawn with traffic wardens. They continued:
"such a corps would have to be able to operate freely throughout the country".
The evidence contained a quantity of examples where such officers were employed abroad. Admittedly this was one of four options which the Nature Conservancy put forward at the time, but it now seems quite ridiculous that the NCC—who now undertake nature conservation on behalf of the nation—should plead that it cannot accept the responsibility of enforcing the provisions in this Bill. I think if we are to have proper enforcement this is probably the way to get it.
The Earl of Avon: I have listened with interest to what the noble Baroness said. Some of it seems very foreign to the ways of this country. As I said earlier, I appreciate fully the need for the enforcement, but I believe that for the moment we must leave it to our own law enforcement officers to carry on and see whether the extra enforcement to be put into this Bill will help in any way to control the poachers, or whatever they be. We believe that local authorities can and should play a positive role in bringing home to the general public what is going on in their own areas, but I think that at the moment we must leave the law enforcement officers to carry on and to see whether the better powers contained in this Bill will be effective.
Lord Melchett: We will, of course, withdraw this amendment as well, but I hope that the Government, and in particular the NCC, will have a look at what my noble friend said about their attitude not very long ago when they seemed to be pressing, not for something foreign to this country, but for exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, and we in this amendment, with the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, have been pressing for ourselves. In other words, not so long ago the NCC seemed to be entirely with us. They have now done a U-turn and I think it would be helpful to have an explanation. I would suggest to all those who have taken an interest in this matter that it might be worthwhile our getting together and coming forward with a single amendment at Report stage if we do not have any more satisfactory response from the NCC in the meantime, which I am afraid we shall not have. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 22 agreed to.
Clause 23 [Functions of Local authorities]:
[Amendment No. 355 not moved.]
9.59 p.m.
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 356:
Page 21, line 10, after ("schoolchildren") insert (",farmers and landowners").
The noble Lord said: This is a simple point which I hope will commend itself to all sides of the Committee. Noble Lords will remember that in the Conservation of Wild Creatures and Wild Plants Act a provision was inserted, as I remember it, because I was speaking for the Government at that stage, rather against the Government's initial Bill, but we were trying to be as helpful as we could in those days. Noble Lords were very keen that we should pass round, particularly to young people, information about the wild birds and wild creatures protected under the Act. It was felt important that information—for example, that uprooting any wildflower then became illegal—should be known to young people, and that particular animals were going to be protected should also be known to young people. What the Government did was to pay for copies of two posters which had been produced by voluntary organisations to be sent to every secondary school in England and Wales, and I think that was widely welcomed.
Turning to this Bill and the amendment, it seemed to me, on re-reading this, that this Bill introduces an enormous amount of new legislation which affects particularly those who live in the countryside. We are going to continue to argue about exactly what the legislation should be, but none of us can deny its importance to farmers and landowners. Their right to do things on their land will be altered in some respects; the rights of other people to do things on their land will be altered in some respects. It seemed to me very important that if we were going to give information about the passing of this Act to anybody it should be to farmers and landowners, as well as to young people—and I am delighted that that provision remains in the Bill, as re-enacted, unaltered. I hope this would be something that would commend itself to all sides of the Committee. As it appears on the list of amendments, it may appear slightly denigrating farmers and landowners, but that is not the intention; it is simply the positioning in the Bill. It is meant to be helpful to all concerned, and I hope it will be welcomed by all concerned. I beg to move.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: When the noble Lord comes to move all his many amendments under Part II, I hope he will bear that particular philosophy in mind; that it is making it very much more difficult for us.
The Earl of Avon: We can well sympathise with the intention of this amendment, and I was indeed interested to hear Lord Melchett's comments about how children got into it in the first place. Farmers and landowners, of course, have a key role to play in wildlife conservation. However, farmers and landowners are members of the public and would be included in any steps which local authorities thought it expedient to take to publicise the provisions of Part I of the Bill, and any orders made thereunder, as required by Clause 23. Schoolchildren are only specifically mentioned because it is
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thought that they are a section of the public which might otherwise get overlooked. In no way do we think the farmers will get overlooked, as the noble Lord, I am sure, will agree. It goes without saying that it is particularly important to educate schoolchildren about the matters in question. Bearing that in mind, I hope the noble Lord will not press the amendment.
Lord Melchett: In view of the rather mixed reaction the amendment got from the noble Lord, Lord Stanley, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 23 agreed to.
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 357:
After Clause 23, insert the following new clause:
("Amendment of Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1944 and Agriculture Act 1970
. Sections 1(1) and 103 of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1944 and the Agriculture Act 1970 respectively shall be amended by the insertion of the words "such advice to take into account nature conservation, wildlife and landscape interests," after the words "agricultural matters".").
The noble Lord said: This amendment is intended to put into Acts of Parliament, the two Acts mentioned in the amendment, the requirement for what is now called ADAS, although under the 1944 Act it was referred to as the National Agricultural Advisory Service and under the 1970 Act as the National Agricultural Advisory Service, that they should, in giving advice to farmers and landowners, take into account nature conservation, wildlife and landscape interests. Noble Lords will remember that we have in this House on many occasions debated the Strutt Report, whose recommendation that ADAS should take on this role would be implemented, I hope, by this amendment. Although we have debated it many times, the recommendation is a short one and I would like to read it. They said:
"The advisory and promotional role of ADAS be extended to include landscape and nature conservation, and provision made for the training of existing staff and, if necessary, the recruitment of specialist staff".
Those noble Lords who are particularly interested in agricultural matters will no doubt know that there was a policy review of the Agricultural Development and Advisory Service carried out after the Strutt Report had been completed and published in January 1978. That review group said in paragraph 4.24:
"Whether or not Government undertakes further formal responsibilities affecting the service, ADAS will be bound to give full weight to environmental considerations in the course of its statutory advisory duties".
We then had some very detailed debates last year about the role of ADAS because of our debates on the changes in the farm capital grant scheme, where we were conservationists and farmers united against the proposed changes that the Government were trying to make, and unfortunately did make. At that stage the Government said that the changes that they were making would allow ADAS to fulfill the sort of role that my amendment envisages. They said explicitly that the staff who would no longer be looking at detailed grant applications before the building or whatever was put up, would be free to give advice on environmental and other matters. That has been repeated a number of times.
There is nothing controversial in the amendment. I hope that it is accepted by everybody that, whatever we may differ about in Part If of the Bill, it is useful for farmers and landowners to have advice, not only on agriculture but also on environmental and wildlife matters and that by far the best people to provide that advice are ADAS. Nobody who has anything to do with farming would dispute that. If anybody is going to provide advice ADAS officers are the best people to provide it.
The general intent behind the amendment was very strongly supported by the Minister of State, Mr. Monro, in another place on 10th November 1980, when he quoted a statement of intent that the National Farmers' Union and the Country Landowners' Association produced three years ago called, Caring for the Countryside. He quoted part of that statement which said simply, briefly and succinctly, "Get advice" when addressing farmers about these particular problems. The Minister, Mr. Monro, went on to say at column 164:
"It is always open to the landowner or the farmer to seek advice from the local ADAS man",
when talking about the problems of destruction of wildlife.
The noble Earl, Lord Avon, said on Second Reading in your Lordships' House at column 1088—he was reminding me, in fact—that the Government:
"are committed to follow the conservation aspects which are laid down in the Strutt Report".
This amendment does no more than do what the noble Earl says that the Government are already doing, and I hope it will be acceptable. I beg to move.
Lord Collison: I have not spoken before in this debate as much as I should have wished. I have stayed behind this evening briefly to give my support to this amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Melchett. Your Lordships will be aware, because I have spoken of it before, that I was a member of the Strutt Committee. I would remind your Lordships that its report was well received by all sectors of the agricultural community and, indeed, by the amenity, environmental and conservationist interests as well. As my noble friend has mentioned, one of its main recommendations was that ADAS officers should be used to advise farmers and landowners on conservation, environmental and amenity matters. The object was, of course, to try to achieve a fair balance between the needs of agriculture and the desirability ofconserving and treasuring our natural and wildlife resources.
The Strutt Committee took a lot of evidence from all sectors of the agricultural community and I must say that we found that, by and large, the farmers and landowners would be only too willing to play their part. We felt—and indeed, they told us—that advice from ADAS would be very well received indeed. The general work of ADAS officers, as it now stands, is greatly appreciated by the farming community; that is to say, on technical and production issues. Their advice is seen as coming from people who are really concerned and interested—without any bias one way or the other—in agricultural matters. On top of that, because the ADAS officers meet the farmers on such a
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friendly basis, they are regarded as friends and not in the least degree as a kind of policeman.
The Strutt Committee, therefore, believed that the contribution that they could make would be very well received indeed and that the officers of ADAS would be very welcome on the farms and on landowners' estates in order to give them some help and assistance in doing what they could to enhance the interests of the environment, amenity and conservation. I certainly hope that the Government will take very seriously indeed what Strutt said in this connection—and they, of course, mentioned other matters, to which we shall come later; for example, the question of footpaths and bulls—and make available any additional resources which may be required to enable the ADAS people to do this additional work properly. I am sure that they will do it well.
10.12 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: I think that this is a symbolic amendment. I should certainly like to support it. I think that we shall have to see in the future—and it will be a very good thing too—a major change in the relationship of agriculture, as it is seen by Government, to environment preservation, as it is seen by Government. We spend a very great deal of money piling up food mountains under the EEC's common agricultural policy when we could be spending exactly the same money paying farmers to produce a little less and to preserve the countryside. As it is, we expect them to do a very great deal without giving them much incentive. I have every feeling for those farmers who experience that problem and every admiration for those farmers who, in spite of the fact that they get no reward for it, do their duty by the countryside.
This is not the place and this is not the Bill in which we can do anything towards altering that. But in the meantime we can build bridges between the two sides. We can insert duties in the various Acts, one duty from one side of the argument into the Acts belonging to the other, and vice versa. I think that the amendment is an important one which I should like to support.
The Earl of Caithness: I should also like to support the amendment and it gives me great pleasure to support the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, on this occasion. I would not comment further on the Strutt Report because I have spoken in depth on that before in your Lordships' House. The noble Lord will be aware that under Section 11 of the Countryside Act 1968 the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food must, when it gives advice, have regard to nature conservation and the landscape. Therefore, it is already embodied in our legislation.
I should like to deal with one point made by the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, when he said that there was precious little incentive for farmers. I think that we give them precious little credit for what they are doing on a voluntary basis to help the wildlife of this country. In recent months—indeed, over the last four or five years—I have been very impressed with how often they go to the MAFF and ADAS to seek advice on wildlife. We should bear this in mind much more in these discussions.
Lord Craigton: I think that this is an opportunity which ought not to be missed.
The Earl of Avon: I shall take the opportunity to ensure that it is not missed. I must confess to having been attracted by this amendment when I first read it on the Marshalled List. Not only does it make clear that the officers of the organisation which is established by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food under the provision of Section 1(1) of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1944 must take into account nature conservation, wildlife and landscape interests when giving advice on agricultural matters, but it also makes clear to the general public that the obligation to do these things has, indeed, been placed upon the officers of ADAS.
Unfortunately, on closer inspection it became apparent that the new clause suffered from several disadvantages. In the first instance the drafting is defective in that the reference to the new clause to Section 103 of the Agriculture Act 1970 is irrelevant. The purpose of that section is merely to amend the main operative section which is Section 1 of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1944. Admittedly it will always be possible to redraft this amendment and put it in acceptable form for inclusion in the legislation, but we think that would be undesirable.
The reason is, as my noble friend said, that there is already an existing provision which does precisely the same task. I refer to Section 11 of the Countryside Act 1968, which provides that in Clause 11 in the exercise of their functions relating to land under any enactment every Minister, Government department, public body shall have regard to the desirability of conserving the national beauty and amenity of the countryside. Even to interfere with the wording of Section 11 would be scarcely a step forward. There is a great danger with provisions which require specified persons to take account of specified matters that they can be read as suggesting that these factors could not otherwise be taken into account or that they, or they alone, are the factors that must be taken into account. This I am sure does not reflect what is intended here. It is much better to leave the matter on the basis that the organisation set up under the 1944 Act will, in carrying out its duties, take account of all the factors which will probably be regarded as relevant.
In other words, what I am saying is that this requirement to take into account nature conservation, wildlife and landscape interests when giving advice on agricultural matters is already covered, and is extremely wide-ranging in its application. Section 11 applies equally to the Minister of Agriculture, his junior Ministers, and to all the officials of that department when carrying out their duties in relation to land. By singling out ADAS in the statute in the way that this amendment proposes would, by placing the emphasis for these duties on ADAS, weaken the effect that this requirement has on everybody else in the Ministry. However, having said that, I accept entirely the force of the argument put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, supported by other noble Lords, and I will undertake to see if there is anything we can do in order to meet his points.
Lord Melchett: I am grateful to the noble Earl
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Section 11 is a total red herring. After the Strutt Committee sat for all the time they did, carefully considering this subject in the greatest detail, and producing a report which had unanimous support from farming, landowning and wildlife organisations, why did they have to be told, unfortunately, by the last Government and then by this, that while they accepted it in principle it could not be implemented for lack of staff? We were then told last year that the changes in the farm capital grant scheme would allow this power to be implemented, and we are then told it does not need anything doing at all because it was all in Section 11 all along. That simply cannot be the case, unless Strutt and his committee completely misled themselves about this, and the policy review of ADAS also misled themselves when they looked at it soon afterwards.
I think it would be valuable from everybody's point of view to have this clear statement in ADAS's functions, and if Section 11 is prayed in aid I would hope that noble Lords on all sides of the Committee would unite in saying that that was not good enough for the last Government and it should not be good enough for this Bill, because nobody else has ever tried to pretend that Section 11 covered this point. It quite clearly does not, and the Strutt Committee felt that it did not. The noble Earl said that he would look at the point. I am grateful to him for that. I hope we can come back with a Government amendment at Report stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 358:
After Clause 23, insert the following new clause:
("Amendment of Forestry Act 1967
. After subsection (1) of section 3 of the Forestry Act 1967 there shall be inserted the following subsection—
"(3A) The Commissioners shall, in exercising their functions under this Act, take appropriate measures to conserve wildlife.".").
The noble Lord said: This is simply an attempt by me to implement one of the recommendations of the sub-committee on forestry of your Lordships' Select Committee on Science and Technology. This is a bit of a cheek, I admit, as I was not a member of that Select Committee and some noble Lords present in the Chamber were. But I read it as an outside, with their report, with great interest. They made the point that the Forestry Commission's present management objectives are those which were first published in 1975, and the Select Committee said, at the end of paragraph 103 of their report:
"Although these objectives are set out clearly, no guidance is given on their relative importance even when they are not always compatible. The basic strategic and tactical implementation of that policy is left to the Forestry Commission as a government department".
The Select Committee went on to recommend in paragraph 146:
"Some aspects of the Forestry Commission's management objectives and statutory terms of reference are becoming out of date in the context of present conditions and the way in which forestry practice is evolving in the Forestry Commission itself and elsewhere. The management objectives make no reference to the need for harmony with water usage, and the special importance of woodlands to nature conservation requires greater prominence".
It is the latter point that my amendment seeks to meet

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and this seemed an appropriate Bill in which to do it. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: I quite understand that the noble Lord should expect the Forestry Commission to pay proper regard to wildlife. If it did not do so, it would be right for the Government to issue the necessary instructions or to provide for it in legislation, if not necessarily in the form of this amendment. However, the Commission has a well-established policy of nature conservation which it has recently set out in its annual report for 1979–80. It fully recognises the importance of preserving wildlife and managing it effectively where management is necessary but, as all foresters will know, and there are many in this House, there are species which have to be controlled in order to safeguard the plantations or the interests of neighbours and it would be wrong to inhibit that. The Commission maintains close touch with the Nature Conservancy Council and other countryside agencies and has its own qualified wildlife officers within its research and development division to advise its forest managers. It also has some 300 trained field staff concerned with woodland protection and wildlife management, which in itself is a reflection of the Commission's commitment to the preservation of wildlife.
I hope I have said enough to demonstrate that the Commission is acutely conscious of its wildlife responsibilities and that it would be wrong, in so far as its functions involve some degree of control over wildlife, and unnecessary in so far as it already pays every possible attention consistent with its functions to conserve wildlife, to impose upon it a statutory requirement which, particularly in the form of this amendment, would inhibit the proper management of its plantations. I therefore hope the noble Lord will not press the amendment.
Lord Melchett: The Minister has said enough to illustrate the fear I expressed earlier that there is something in the way of double standards operating here. In a Bill concerned with the conservation and protection of wildlife, we find a number of provisions which ensure that agriculture and forestry are given their proper place with all due consideration being given to those interests. However, in a measure concerned with forestry we are not allowed even the mildest hint that wildlife might be important and that those operating the Forestry Commission should take that factor into account.
The amendment does not do what the Minister suggested; it does not hinder the proper management of forestry but simply says that they should take appropriate measures to conserve wildlife. It does not say they should take inappropriate measures, and inappropriate ones would clearly be those which conflicted with their primary duties for forestry management. It was the mildest form of words one could conceive to implement the Select Committee's recommendation. It seems that the Government are claiming to strike a balance between farming and commercial interests on the one hand and the protection of wildlife on the other but in fact are doing no such thing, and the rejection of an amendment of this kind shows they are not even attempting to strike such a balance.
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They are ensuring that the whole of the Bill is full of provisions which protect agriculture and forestry but that none of those involved in agriculture and forestry shall pay one jot of attention to the interests of wildlife. It is a pity that, while they are saying they wish to strike a correct balance, the Government are not prepared even to consider amendments which attempt to take them at their word. The hour is late and I appreciate that many noble Lords are anxious to get home, so for the time being I will not press the amendment. I beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 24 [Regulations, orders, notices etc.]:
[Amendments Nos. 359 and 360 not moved.]
10.25 p.m.
Lord Stanley of Alderley Lord Stanley of Alderley moved Amendment No. 360A:
Page 21, line 20, at end insert£
("(1A) Any orders under sections 5, 11 and 20 shall not be made unless a draft of the order has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.").
The noble Lord said: In order to save time I should like to ask my noble friend whether he is going to accept this amendment, and if not, why not? I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: No, for the following reason. We have spoken to similar amendments and I think that the Government have to oppose them because we do not want orders under Clauses 5, 11 and 20 of the Bill made if they have to be approved by each House of Parliament. That procedure is reserved for orders such as those which would amend Acts of Parliament. Without wishing to denigrate their importance, I would say that to inflict upon both Houses the necessity of considering one Affirmative Resolution on what would amount to a number of relatively minor matters, especially when parliamentary time is under such pressure, would be unreasonable. I have indicated that the Government will be bringing forward an amendment to make orders subject to the Negative Resolution procedure, and I hope that, with that in mind, my noble friend will be able to withdraw this amendment.
Lord Stanley of Alderley: I am sorry that my noble friend had to say that. We have given very detailed discussion as to what should be included in which schedule in relation to creatures which should or should not be killed. I cannot see why in the future when we put creatures on to a schedule or take them off a schedule the matter should not be discussed in Parliament. It is proposed to have a Negative Resolution, but that is not very satisfactory. However, at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 360B, 360C, 361 and 362 not moved.]
Lord Melchett Lord Melchett moved Amendment No. 363:
Page 21, line 40, at end insert ("or, in the case of an area including sea, adjoins that area.").
The noble Lord said: This amendment concerns a

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minor legal point which I am not sure I fully understand, but I hope that the noble Earl will understand it. The purpose of the amendment is to clear up the Government's view of whether local authorities have territorial waters. As I understand it, the general opinion seems to be that they do not. A special provision has to be made for the magistrates' courts, which were traditionally based on counties, to have jurisdiction over territorial sea. But if the Government were disposed to accept the amendment it would allow local authorities along the shoreline to make representations about reserves at sea; not only marine reserves, which we now hope the Government will include in the Bill in an enabling clause at least, but possibly also bird reserves under Clause 3. I hope that that brief explanation will help the noble Earl to see his way to accept the amendment. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: As the noble Lord rightly said, this is a rather technical point. The Secretary of State will always consider proposals from a local authority in respect of areas of land and water within its boundaries. The proposed amendment seeks to widen the scope of orders without attending to such matters as the extention of the police powers to act in relation to the sea. As it stands, the amendment is defective and I shall have to resist it.
Lord Melchett: How is it defective?
The Earl of Avon: That is an excellent question. It is defective because it would not be reasonable for a local authority to have added powers outside its area; but I shall come back to the noble Lord on this one.
Lord Melchett: I do not think that this is a matter on which we should take up the time of the Committee at this hour. If the noble Earl would be good enough to write to me about it, I should be very grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 24 agreed to.
Clause 25 [Interpretation of Part I]:
Lord Houghton of Sowerby Lord Houghton of Sowerby moved Amendment No. 364:
Page 22, line 2, at end insert—
(""air weapon "means an air rifle, air gun or air pistol not of a type declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of the Firearms Act 1968 to be specially dangerous").
The noble Lord said: Now we come to the armoury. I shall move this amendment just to put on the record a definition of the airgun or air weapon, though I shall readily withdraw it if it is of no use to the noble Earl. It is a pity that we do not have a Select Committee of gunsmiths who could take this lot away and then bring us the answers to what is an automatic weapon, what is an airgun, what is a reloader, and all the rest of it. I am sure that there is considerable expertise on the other side of the Committee. Indeed, I see there the noble Lord, Lord Swansea, who will be telling us all about it in a few minutes.
But for my part I shall save time; that is what I am after now. Is this any good, or is it not? Let me
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remind the noble Earl that earlier he promised to take away the airgun to have a look at it, among the 124 other things that the Government are going to look at. I assume that if they are going to include the airgun in the list of prohibited weapons in any way they will bring forward a definition at the same time. But the noble Earl has mine for what it is worth. If he does not want it, let him say so and I shall withdraw my amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Swansea: The noble Lord, Lord Houghton, threw into the ring the question whether or not his amendment was any good. I would submit to your Lordships that it is not, and I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will not be too precipitate in committing the Government to accepting an amendment of this kind, which, to our surprise, he indicated a couple of weeks ago that he would. The effect of the amendment would be to restrict the use of air weapons to those of higher-power muzzle energy of more than 12 foot-pounds, the ownership of which is subject to the holding of a firearms certificate. I think this is both unnecessary and mistaken, because I seem to detect in it a move to restrict the ownership of weapons under the guise of conservation. Secondly, I think it is a mistake to suppose that air weapons of a lower power are not effective in dealing with small pests. I believe they are, and I could produce evidence to support that, but I shall not detain your Lordships on this occasion. I just hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will not be in too much of a hurry to commit the Government.
The Earl of Avon: As I think I said to the noble Lord, Lord Houghton, when he spoke to this matter earlier, the Government accept the idea behind it and we propose, therefore, to put down a suitable amendment on another occasion. That still holds, and I am having a discussion on it with some people again tomorrow.
Lord Houghton of Sowerby: That means, then, that I can safely withdraw the amendment, which I beg leave to do.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 365 not moved.]
The Chairman of Committees: I have to point out that if Amendment No. 366 is agreed to I cannot call Amendments Nos. 367 and 367A.
Lord Swansea Lord Swansea moved Amendment No. 366:
Page 22, leave out lines 20 to 22 and insert (""automatic weapon" means any weapon falling within the definition in section 5(1)(a) of the Firearms Act 1968").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move this amendment on the principle that we should have a proper definition in the Bill of exactly what is meant by automatic weapons and semi-automatic weapons. All the Bill says at present is that the terms "automatic weapon" and "semi-automatic weapon" do not include any weapon with a magazine capacity of more than two rounds. That is no way to define either an automatic or a semi-automatic weapon. I think we must have a firm basis from which to start before we can discuss the question of magazine capacity. As the Irishman said, "I would not start from here". It is for this

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reason that I have tabled this amendment, to set out clearly what is meant by an automatic weapon by reference to Section 5 of the Firearms Act. There is another amendment later on, set down in the name of one of my noble friends, relating to semi-automatic weapons, and I think that if the Government can accept the principle of definitions of this kind, which are purely factual, then we can have a firm base from which to start in discussing the magazine capacity of those weapons. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: As I said to my noble friend when he moved a similar amendment on, I think, the first day, we are required to ban the use of automatic and semi-automatic weapons with a magazine capable of holding more than two rounds of ammunition—that is, three in total, with one in the breech—because of our obligations under the European Community directive. The weapons can be permitted to be used under licence against birds, and we intend to allow their use against most pest species; that is, those birds in Schedule 2, Part II. Their use could also be authorised as appropriate on licences issued in respect of other species. However, as I said before, we are confined to this definition by our obligations under the European Community directive, and therefore I cannot help my noble friend.
Lord Swansea: I thank my noble friend for those remarks. Of course, the most important aspect of this is the question of the ·22 semi-automatic rifle. I shall not pursue this at this late hour, but I shall return to it at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 367 and 367A not moved.]
The Chairman of Committees: I have to point out that, if Amendment No. 368 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 369.
10.37 p.m.
Lord Kilbracken Lord Kilbracken moved Amendment No. 368:
Page 22, line 29, leave out from ("partridge") to end of line 31 and insert ("or grouse including ptarmigan, but excluding capercaillie").
The noble Lord said: I invite your Lordships attention to the definition of "game bird" which is said to mean:
"any pheasant, partridge, grouse (or moor game), black (or heath) game or, in Scotland, ptarmigan".
I know that those are the words that have been used in previous legislation, but I should like to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that the ptarmigan is a grouse and the capercaillie is a grouse, so that to talk about grouse and/or ptarmigan is like talking about Peers of the Realm or Barons. I am proposing that, instead, we should simply say that "game bird" means any pheasant, partridge or grouse, including ptarmigan but excluding capercaillie. This leaves out the old fashioned words "moor game" and "heath game" for red grouse and black grouse; and also leaves out the words: "in Scotland", which are to be deleted, anyway, by the Government Amendment No. 369. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, is trying to clarify this particular position. As he says, the definition of "game bird" which appears in the Bill is identical with the one in the Protection of Birds Act 1954 and is taken from the Game Act 1831 which is still in force. I understand that the noble Lord wishes to modernise the wording, but to do this would mean amending the definition in the Game Act at the same time. It would seem to be a pity to have to go back to 1831. As the noble Lord has seen, we have tabled a Government amendment to delete the words "in Scotland" which are confusing. I hope that that little bit of clarity may persuade him not to press me on the remainder of the definition.
Lord Kilbracken: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Earl of Avon The Earl of Avon moved Amendment No. 369:
Page 22, line 30, leave out (",in Scotland,").
The noble Earl said: This minor amendment seeks to remove the words "in Scotland" from the definition of "game bird". Although the current definition is of long standing, it is unclear to the extent that it can be read to mean that in Scotland there is only one game bird; namely, the ptarmigan. The amendment removes any ambiguity and does not affect the practical position in any way, as the ptarmigan is found only in Scotland. I beg to move.
Lord Melchett: May I ask the noble Earl what happens if the ptarmigan decides to spread and establish itself in Northern England? Would that be allowed under the Bill or not?
The Earl of Avon: As it is now with all other grouse, yes, it would.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: It cannot exist under 2,000 feet.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Earl of Avon The Earl of Avon moved Amendment No. 370:
Page 22, leave out lines 32 and 33.
The noble Earl said: I have to some degree spoken to this amendment in replying to the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson. This amendment removes the definition of "livestock". The Government originally put down the amendment as a result of the inclusion of "livestock" in the new subsection and in consequential amendments to the equivalent clause dealing with animals. However, the Committee expressed the view—and the Government accepted it—that wild game should not be protected from natural predation by mammals. The definition is no longer required. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Kilbracken Lord Kilbracken moved Amendment No. 371:
Page 23, line 3, leave out ("and exchange") and insert ("exchange and gift").
The noble Lord said: The definition of "sale" is stated at the top of page 23 as including hire, barter

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and exchange. My amendment would change that to
"hire, barter, exchange and gift".
The omission of the word "gift" would leave a loophole where a sale or exchange had taken place, because it could be claimed that the transaction was a gift. Where a gift had taken place which if it had been a sale would have been an offence, that should be subject to the same penalties. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: I do not think that one can call it closing a loophole to stop a genuine gift. If the "gift" is not genuine (for example, money has been paid or another item given in exchange) and can be shown, an offence will have been committed. There is a loophole in the current definition of "sale", in that people can claim to hire out birds and thus get around the sale provisions; this we have closed by the addition of the word "hire" to the definition.
The Government do not consider that omission of "gift" leaves a loophole. We would not want to prohibit the giving of genuine gifts which would, quite unnecessarily in our view, increase bureaucracy, by adding to the licensing workload. If the so-called gift is not genuine, the Bill as drafted makes it an offence. It would of course have to be shown that an offence had been committed, but that is no more than the normal requirement. To add the word "gift" in this definition is going a little bit too far. I hope that, with due consideration, the noble Lord will agree.
Lord Kilbracken: I wonder whether I may ask the noble Earl this question. I do not want to press the amendment, of course; but in those cases where it is illegal to sell a bird or a bird's egg, do I understand him to say that it would not be an offence under those circumstances to give that bird or that egg to another person and that it is only when the sale, hire or barter takes place that an offence is created?
The Earl of Avon: The answer to that is that, if a bird or any part thereof is legally in possession, then it will be a legal gift. Does that make sense?
Lord Kilbracken: I am not talking about where it is in legal possession; I am talking about where it is illegal, and where the sale of it is a separate offence. In those cases where the sale is an additional offence would it still be an offence when it is given to the person instead of being sold to him?
The Earl of Avon: I would certainly think so. If I am wrong, I shall come back to the noble Lord.
Lord Kilbracken: In that case, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard Viscount Massereene and Ferrard moved Amendment No. 372:
Page 23, line 3, at end insert—
(""semi-automatic" means any firearm which uses part of the recoil energy or the gas pressure generated on firing to operate the action in a self-loading mode. In each instance a separate pressure on the trigger is required for subsequent missiles to be discharged").
The noble Viscount said: Since the definition of semi-automatic weapons in Clause 25, line 20, is inadequate, I have put down this amendment. Having heard what the Minister said to my noble friend Lord Swansea, I do not suppose the Government will accept it. Having said that, I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: We considered when drafting this Bill inclusion of, as it happens, an identical definition of the term semi-automatic weapon, but were advised that it was unnecessary as it does nothing since it merely sets out the ordinary meaning of the expression semi-automatic. So far as I am aware, there is no other meaning which might be confused with the ordinary meaning. I therefore invite my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness David Baroness David moved Amendment No. 373:
Page 23, line 5, leave out ("remove the plant with its roots") and insert ("wholly remove the plant from the land on which").
The noble Baroness said: I should like the Committee to turn their attention from weapons to algae and fungi. In the Conservation of Wild Creatures and Wild Plants Act 1975 Clause 15(2) said:
"Any fungus or alga shall not be treated as a plant for the purposes of this Act unless it is a composite of fungus and alga in the form of lichen".
That has been dropped from this Bill, so that as a result algae and fungi are now included; but the definition of "uproot" which appeared in the 1975 Act appears almost exactly the same in this Bill. As algae and fungi are now included and do not have roots and, in many cases, one could not use the phrase, "dig up", about taking them, we believe that the definition given in Clause 25 could be improved by using the words in the amendment, so that it would read:
"wholly remove the plant from the land on which it is growing".
I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: I take the noble Baroness's point. I am not quite sure that one can uproot something which has no roots, but I will certainly look into her suggestion.
Baroness David: Thank you. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
10.46 p.m.
Lord Kilbracken Lord Kilbracken moved Amendment No. 374:
Page 23, line 14, leave out ("ordinarily").
The noble Lord said: The definition of a wild bird is stated to be:
"any bird which is of a kind which is ordinarily resident in or is a visitor to Great Britain in a wild state".
I am proposing to leave out the word "ordinarily", and I hope the Government will see the validity of this suggestion. All kinds of birds are either resident in, or visitors to, Great Britain, or both; and this definition means that a bird which is a visitor to Britain is covered by the definition, even though it visits Britain only once in 10 years. But if it is in the class of birds that is

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resident in Great Britain it has to be "ordinarily" resident, and if not "ordinarily resident" it is not covered by the definition.
Practically all birds that are resident in this country are ordinarily resident here, but of course there are those which are extraordinarily resident here. If we take a species such as, for instance, the Dartford warbler, it is resident in this country but is ordinarily resident in France or on the Continent. It is also resident in this country , but is very rare and not often seen. It seems to me that the definition of "wild bird" should include those residents which are only occasionally seen here and are ordinarily resident somewhere else. I beg to move.
The Earl of Avon: I was rather hoping that this would be put down, for income tax purposes, as I gather that "ordinarily" means out of the country for more than one year. However, I gather there is another reason. The noble Lord, Lord Kilbracken, has expressed concern that the definition of "wild bird" as drafted might exclude a species such as the Dartford warbler, which is ordinarily resident on the Continent. However, this does not prevent its being ordinarily resident in Great Britain as well. In any case where there might be doubt, the species would be protected as a visitor.
The loss of the word "ordinarily" would have a considerable effect on the Bill. It has been included so as to exclude from protection escapees of nonnative, primarily exotic species such as the ring-necked paraqueet, so as to chime in with the new introduction of non-native species, which your Lordships debated last Monday. These species, in the absence of the word "ordinarily", receive protection as residents, as they do not visit the country in the wild state. So for that rather dubious reason the word, "ordinarily", is included.
Lord Kilbracken: However dubious it may be, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 25, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord Melchett: May I very briefly raise a point about the definition of "poultry" in Clause 25? The definition reads that "poultry" means domestic fowls and, among other things, domestic ducks. I just wondered whether the noble Earl could at some point, not now, write to me and give me some assurance that there is no possibility of that definition being interpreted in the court so as to include, for example, normally wild species of duck which were kept in captivity and bred there, or a normally wild British bird which was kept in captivity and bred there, because they were thereby felt to be domestic—whether domestic duck, domestic fowl or what have you. It is simply that if the court did interpret the word "poultry" in that way, as a result of the definition in the clause, it would provide a major loophole in the provisions of the Bill. I hope that it does not. The noble Earl may be able to reassure me straight away or, if not, in due course.
Lord Kilbracken: I was worried about the same point. What is confusing is that we do not know how many of these nouns are qualified by the adjective "domestic". Is it all of them or does it qualify only the word "fowls", because pigeons and quails, without the qualification "domestic", are also wild birds within the meaning of the Bill.
The Earl of Avon: I take both noble Lords' points. I am virtually certain that they have no need to worry, but I will certainly check on it and let them know.
Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed.