Lords Sitting of 22 December 1981

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Guildford.

Social Security Contributions Bill
Lord Denham: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.— (Lord Denham. )
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone): My Lords, the Question is, That the said Bill be now read a first time.
Lord Brockway: My Lords—
The Lord Chancellor: The Question is, That the said Bill be now read a first time. As many as are of that opinion will say, Content?
Noble Lords: Content.
The Lord Chancellor: To the contrary, Not-Content?
Lord Brockway: Not-Content.
The Lord Chancellor: I think the Contents have it.
Lord Brockway: No.
The Lord Chancellor: The Contents have it.
On Question, Bill read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
Lord Brockway: May I address the House?
Several noble Lords: No.

Consolidated Fund Bill
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.—(Lord Cullen of Ashbourne.)
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, the Question is, That the said Bill be now read a first time. As many as are of that opinion will say, Content?
Noble Lords: Content.
The Lord Chancellor: To the contrary, Not-Content?
Lord Brockway: Not-Content.
The Lord Chancellor: I think that the Contents have it.
Lord Brockway: No.
The Lord Chancellor: The Contents have it.
On Question, Bill read a first time.
Then, standing order No. 43 having been dispensed with (pursuant to Resolution):
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Cullen of Ashbourne.)
The Lord Chancellor: The Question is, That the said Bill be now read a second time.
Lord Brockway: May I address the House?
Several noble Lords: No.
Lord Beswick: Order!
The Lord Chancellor: As many as are of that opinion will say, Content?
Noble Lords: Content.
The Lord Chancellor: To the contrary, Not-Content?
Lord Brockway: Not-Content.
The Lord Chancellor: The Contents have it.
On Question, Bill read a second time.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be not committed.
Moved, That the Bill be not committed.—(Lord Cullen of Ashbourne.)
The Lord Chancellor: The Question is, That the said Bill be not committed. As many as are of that opinion will say, Content?
Noble Lords: Content.
The Lord Chancellor: To the contrary, Not-Content?
Lord Brockway: Not-Content.
The Lord Chancellor: The Contents have it.
Committee negatived.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read a third time.—(Lord Cullen of Ashbourne.)
The Lord Chancellor: The Question is, That the said Bill be now read a third time. As many as are of that opinion will say, Content?
Noble Lords: Content.
The Lord Chancellor: To the contrary, Not-Content?
Lord Brockway: Not-Content.
Lord Beswick: Not-Content.
The Lord Chancellor: The Contents have it.
On Question, Bill read a third time.
Lord Cullen of Ashbourne: I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Cullen of Ashbourne.)
The Lord Chancellor: The Question is, That the Bill do now pass. As many as are of that opinion will say, Content? To the contrary, Not-Content? The Contents have it.
Bill passed.
Lord Beswick: My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Lord why—
Several noble Lords: Order!
Lord Beswick: My Lords, may we have a ruling from the Lord Chancellor? I distinctly heard calls of Not-Content to my right and I wondered why, on this occasion and on no other, that call was disregarded.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I put the Question twice and on the second occasion I held that the Contents had it.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, I seek the view of the noble and learned Lord. Is it not possible, when a Bill is before this House, to take part in a discussion when those Motions are moved?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, it is not for me to act as Leader of the House. I must, however, tell the noble Lord that this is the Consolidated Fund Bill and that it is not customary in this House to discuss matters on this Bill. This is not a mirror image of the House of Commons.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, I appreciate that it is not customary. Is the noble and learned Lord aware that only deep compulsion would lead me to wish to speak? Surely I am allowed to speak on this Bill?
The Lord Chancellor: The Question was put, my Lords, and the voices taken. The Question has been decided by the House.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Earl Ferrers): My Lords, perhaps I may say, in the position of acting as Leader of the House, that I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, will understand that the Consolidated Fund Bill, by custom and practice, has always been taken in this House without consideration, as a matter of courtesy and as a matter of fact. It would be contrary to all precedents—I say this with the greatest respect—for noble Lords to speak on this issue, and indeed the Government do not have Ministers available, as they do in another place, in order to answer such questions. If Lord Brockway wishes to alter the customs of the House—and there are as many unwritten rules to enable the procedure of this House to proceed as there are written ones—he should do so (again, I say this with the greatest respect) through the usual channels or through the Procedure Committee.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, I have the greatest respect—
Lord Peart: My Lords, I hope all noble Lords will observe the customs of the House.
Lord Brockway: My Lords, I have the greatest desire to appreciate and carry out the customs of the House. It is only because two issues are now before the country, issues of critical importance, that I wanted an opportunity to raise the matter. I asked that they might be raised and I indicated a Private Notice Question. Both were declined, and it was only because of that that I sought to raise the matter now. I accept the decision of the House.
Lord Denham: My Lords, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn during pleasure until 11.25 a.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

British Railways (No. 2) Bill
Returned from the Commons with the amendments agreed to.

Royal Assent
11.27 a.m.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts:

Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Act,

Nuclear Industry (Finance) Act,

Housing (Amendment) (Scotland) Act,

Midlothian District Council Order Confirmation Act,

Derbyshire Act,

British Railways (No. 2) Act.

Procedure
11.28 a.m.
Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe: My Lords, before the House adjourns, may I ask the Deputy Leader whether he has any Statement to make about the proceedings on the Consolidated Fund Bill earlier today?
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the Bill was of course taken through its stages, and if the noble Baroness thought that the Questions were put too quickly, or anything like that, that is a matter for the noble and learned Lord who sits upon the Woolsack, and perhaps it would be as well if my noble and learned friend were to make any comments upon that.
The Lord Chancellor: Well, my Lords, if I did put them too quickly, I am naturally very sad and apologise to the House. But I must make one or two observations to the House. There are, of course, occasions when discussion is not customary in the House and things are not taken to a Division. As long ago as the 1840s, in the judicial business, a noble Lord tried to speak and tried to take matters to a Division, when the judicial business of the House was taken, and Lord Lyndhurst did then exactly what I did on this occasion. That was 150 years ago.
The Consolidated Fund Bill is in exactly the same position. According to my understanding, privileges of the House of Commons are that we do not discuss the Consolidated Fund Bill and we do not take it to a Division. I believe that if we had taken it to a Division, there would have been a conflict between the two Houses.
As a matter of fact, when I put the Question the second time I did not even hear a voice raised as "Not-Content". There was a certain amount of confusion, but I had assumed that the House was following its normal process. On the first occasion when I heard that one voice was "Not-Content" I then proceeded to put the Question a second time. There was a certain amount of confusion the second time. What I should have done if I had heard the second voice I do not know, but I should have gone on putting the Question once more, I think, in any event; but in the circumstances which happened I did not hear it.
As a matter of fact, I think it is the duty of the Lord Chancellor or the occupant of the Woolsack, on occasions when voices are not raised and when the House does not take matters to a Division by convention—as on judicial sittings and as on the Consolidated Fund Bill—probably to have taken the opinion of the House on the matter. But my understanding of the duty of the occupant of the Woolsack is that, where matters are not taken to a Division by convention, the Question is put without discussion and without a Division. But in point of fact the second time I put it I thought the voice of protest had been stilled and that what I heard was a slight babble of confusion. If I acted therefore precipitately, I am naturally very sorry.
Lord Hatch of Lusby: My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack whether he would divide what he has just said between going to a Division and having a discussion, and let us know whether or not it would be in order to discuss the Consolidated Fund Bill without any question of a Division?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, that is not a question for me; that is a question for the Leader of the House. What I was asked was why I declared the voices in the way I did at the time I did. The question of discussion has been commented on already by my noble friend the acting Leader of the House, and he said it was the custom of the House not to discuss. When I was Leader I certainly would have taken the same view; but that is not a matter for me, sitting where I do. What is a matter for me is the putting of the Question, and it was that matter about which the Chief Whip on the Opposition Front Bench asked and it was that which I sought to answer.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, if I may say so, I think we are in danger of getting into a discussion upon a Statement which was invited by the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies. I think that if one may try to draw any conclusions from this matter it is that, when the normal customs and procedures of the House are altered or look like being changed ad hoc, it is precisely that which creates difficulties and creates confusions. If there has been any difficulty or confusion over this matter, I think the right course would be to refer it to the Procedure Committee to make quite sure that any problems of this nature do not arise again in the future. But that, if I may say so, is the reason why it is essential to adhere to the customs and procedures of the House, not in order to gag or prevent anyone from speaking but simply to avoid the type of confusion which may have occurred today.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, with great respect and some temerity, may I ask that when the Procedure Committee consider this question they will consider the point made by my noble friend; that is, that the question of discussion might reasonably be separated from the question of decision?
Lord Peart: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord opposite for what he suggests. We agree with this.
Lord Denham: My Lords, in moving the adjournment of the House, I think that I speak for all my noble friends on this side in saying that we would wish noble Lords opposite, wherever they may sit, a very restful Recess, a happy Christmas and a good New Year—and I think that we all should like to extend those wishes to all the staff everywhere in the House who serve us so well.
Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe: My Lords, we on these Benches would like to echo very warmly especially the last words that the noble Lord the Chief Whip has uttered. We owe such a lot to all the staff of the House and we all of us wish them a particularly restful and happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year. We also wish noble Lords in all parts of the House a peaceful and a happy New Year.
Lord Wigoder: My Lords, may we also extend our seasonal greetings and best wishes for the New Year to noble Lords in all parts of the House, without any political implications?
Lord Kennet: My Lords, I should like to associate myself with everything that has been said in this last and most pleasant function of the House before Christmas.
The Lord Bishop of Norwich: My Lords, may I say, God bless you all!
The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, the Cross-Benches would not want to be left out of this.