HL Deb 17 December 1981 vol 426 cc286-91

11.37 a.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Belstead)

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. At the end of the Second World War fire-fighting functions were taken out of the hands of the National Fire Service and returned to local authorities by the Fire Services Act 1947. Section 23(1) of that Act permitted the Secretary of State to establish and maintain a central training institution for providing courses of instruction in matters relating to fire services. Section 23(2) required that any central training establishment which might be set up should be under the general direction of a board. Such a board was set up, and is known as the Fire Service College Board. It is the purpose of this Bill to abolish this board.

The history of central training institutions in the fire service since the war starts in 1951 when a college, set up during the war at Saltdean as the National Fire Service College, was succeeded by a Fire Service College established by the Home Office at Wootton House, a very fine Tudor mansion, near Dorking in Surrey. This had residential accommodation for 60 students, and was equipped with lecture theatres, demonstration rooms and a library, but it had no practical fireground facilities. In 1967 it was renamed the Fire Service Staff College. In 1968 work began on a new technical college for the fire service on a former RAF airfield at Moreton-in-Marsh, and building work, representing a capital investment of several million pounds, was completed by the mid-1970s.

The new technical college had accommodation for 470 residential students. The facilities are now generally recognised to be among the finest in the world, and include, in addition to classrooms, lecture and command theatres, a library and laboratories, also a modern fireground with specially designed fire buildings of a variety of types in which training in all forms of fire-fighting—including, incidentally, fire-fighting in ships—can be given under realistic conditions of heat, smoke and fire. The college was formally opened by Her Majesty the Queen on 17th May 1974. From that time the staff college at Dorking became responsible for training the more senior officers in the fire service in the skills required for higher command; and these, then, were the two institutions over which the Fire Service College Board had general direction until this year.

In 1980, however, it was decided that the staff college at Dorking should close and that its functions should be transferred to Moreton-in-Marsh. This move was successfully completed earlier this year and now both aspects of central training for the fire service are concentrated at Moreton-in-Marsh at the newly-named Fire Service College. This combined college provides courses for students from fire brigades throughout the United Kingdom from leading firemen to chief officer rank. Courses for students from overseas and industrial and other outside organisations are also held. The closure of the staff college has resulted in the Fire Service College Board now exercising general direction over only one institution—the Fire Service College.

The requirement for a board to provide general direction over central training institutions was introduced by way of amendment during the course of the Fire Services Bill in 1947, on the grounds that local authorities were likely to be required under regulations to contribute towards the running costs of the institution. With the introduction of rate support grant, however, it was considered appropriate for the whole cost of central training for the fire service to be borne by the Secretaries of State, both the Home Secretary and also the Secretary of State for Scotland. Local authorities have, therefore, since 1st April 1967, made no contribution towards the substantial costs of providing and running the facilities which now exist for central training of the fire service, and the primary reason for the board thus came to an end some years ago.

However, even before this happened, in 1960, a sub-committee of the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Councils known as the Joint Training Committee was set up and it is to this committee that the Fire Department of the Home Office now looks for advice on the central training programme. The organisations represented on the Fire Service College Board are represented also on the Joint Training Committee. It was not unexpected, therefore, when the abolition of the board was proposed as a contribution towards the general reduction in non-departmental public bodies in Sir Leo Pliatzky's report published in January 1980.

This Bill in no way represents any diminution in the importance which the Government attach to the provision of proper central training arrangements for the fire service, and the cost of this will continue to be borne in the same way by the Home Departments as it has since 1967. The amount of money which would be saved as a result of the abolition of the college board would be modest; the main advantage would be the reduction in time and effort involved in arranging and attending meetings for board members whose organisations are, as I have said, already represented in just the same way on the Joint Training Committee of the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council.

I am grateful for the opportunity this gives me to pay tribute to the valuable contribution which the board has made toward the general direction of the two central training colleges in the past, and I am sure that this has played a significant role in building up the high reputation both of the staff college and the technical college. The duties discharged by the staffs and the standards at both colleges were of the very highest calsibre. The Government will do their utmost to ensure the maintenance and, if possible, the enhancement of that reputation which the two colleges have carried with them over past years.

Lastly, I should perhaps refer to the position in Scotland. Recruit training in Scotland is carried out centrally at the Scottish Fire Service Training School at Gullane, East Lothian. The school was established under Section 23(1)(b) of the Fire Services Act 1947 as a local training centre to provide training for fire service recruits and junior ranks. It is administered by the Secretary of State for Scotland on the advice of a committee which he has established, and not by a board. Since this committee was not established under the provisions of the Fire Services Act 1947, it would be unaffected by the provisions of the Bill now under consideration. I am advised that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland wishes that committee to remain in existence in order that he can continue to benefit from its advice.

The Fire Service College Board has served its purpose well but it is no longer necessary for it to provide general direction for the Fire Service College. The Bill does not affect the present position in regard to the funding and the administration of the college, for that responsibility rests with my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, and he is advised on training matters by the Joint Training Committee of the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Councils. With that assurance, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Lord Belstead.)

11.45 a.m.

Lord Boston of Faversham

My Lords, in view of the subject matter of this Bill, which deals with the fire service, it should have been possible for me to think up something inflammatory to say. However, I am afraid that I have to disappoint the noble Lord the Minister and your Lordships. Either as a result of being captivated by the gentle persuasiveness of the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, or being overcome by the approach of the season of good will—or both—I find myself unable to oppose the purposes of this Bill.

In thanking the noble Lord for explaining the background and the aims of the Bill, I want to say that we on this side of the House do not regard it as particularly controversial and we do not wish to stand in its way. Even so, there are some points that I should like to raise. The noble Lord will recall that in 1970 we had the report of the departmental committee on the fire service under the chairmanship of Sir Ronald Holroyd. If I may say so, it was a very thorough and comprehensive report.

The committee had been set up in 1967 by the then Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland—now my noble friend Lord Ross of Marnock. That report set out the composition and functions of the Fire Service College Board in much the way that the Minister has explained this morning. The report pointed out that the board had very strictly limited freedom of action. As the Minister has indicated, the board would, if it continued, have that much less to do now with the closure of the Fire Service Staff College at Dorking and the transfer of those functions to the fire service technical college at Moreton-in-Marsh.

It is worth noting in passing that the annual report for 1980 of Her Majesty's Inspector of Fire Services mentions that the staff college at Dorking would be closing, and that this would be taking place after careful consideration by the Home Secretary who decided that in order to achieve savings in Government expenditure it should he closed and higher training transferred in the way that the Minister has indicated this morning to Moreton-in-Marsh.

However, I do not think that it should pass without notice that that was in fact foreshadowed, to some extent at least, in the recommendations of the Holroyd Report in 1970, which felt then that the Dorking College had a limited life. In those ways it is true to say—and I wholly agree with the Minister on this matter—that the board's functions were both limited and diminishing. However, the Holroyd Committee did not recommend the board's abolition when it reported in 1970. It made certain recommendations for somewhat extending the board's powers and functions. The report made this clear in paragraph 269 in particular: We therefore recommend that the College Board, renamed the Governing Body and with broadened membership, should he given powers and responsibilities more akin to those of the Governing Bodies of the new Polytechnics and Colleges of Further Education. I do not intend going further into those matters now, but I should like to ask the Minister whether those suggestions which were made in the Holroyd Report were taken into account by the Government in coming to their decision to introduce this Bill. If so, to what extent were they taken into account? I feel sure that at the very least we owe it to those who worked very hard on that inquiry to offer some explanation or indication that their views were considered.

May I say that I know the Minister himself, the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, has taken a close interest in these matters and he has visited the college at Moreton-in-Marsh, as is mentioned in a recent annual report of Her Majesty's Inspector of Fire Services. So far as the new arrangements are concerned (those outlined by the Minister this morning) and which will result from this Bill, if it is passed, it is the case that although fire authorities throughout the country will no longer have their contact with the administration of the college through its board, they will presumably—and the Minister has gone some way to indicate this—continue to keep in touch and be kept in touch with developments on training through, I assume, the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Councils and their Joint Training Committee which have been referred to by the Minister today.

I would ask the Minister whether he is completely convinced that those arrangements will be wholly satisfactory and whether those new arrangements will be adequate to fulfil all the duties and functions at present undertaken by the board itself, and also whether the supervision of the college syllabus and of any future proposals for its revision will continue to be effectively carried out under these new arrangements.

My Lords, I feel that we have a duty to make sure that the college and the service will continue to function at least as well as they do now and this Bill will do nothing to reduce their efficiency. Subject to being reassured on these points—and the Minister has gone a considerable way to doing that this morning—I am happy to give a welcome to this Bill. I am pleased to understand that the Fire Brigades Union is happy to go along with it, too. Perhaps I could place on record, on behalf of those on these Benches, our warm thanks—and here I join with the noble Lord, Lord Belstead—to all concerned who are serving and have served on the board over the years and those who have serviced it, as well. As one final thought, I must confess I am almost tempted to give warning that I might at the Committee stage propose amending the Title to the Bill. It strikes me that in view of the subject matter—and, after all, it deals with the fire service—instead of the Fire Service College Board (Abolition) Bill perhaps a more felicitous title might have been "The Fire Service College Board (Extinguishing) Bill". But I am a little reluctant to do that, just in case the Minister decides that he has no alternative but to pour cold water on the idea.

11.54 a.m.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Boston, for the support he has given for the objectives of this short Bill. The noble Lord said that he found it hard to deliver any inflammatory remarks. If the noble Lord had been able to deliver any inflammatory remarks, I feel sure they would have been put out later by the Welsh Water Authority (Constitution) (Variation) Order 1981, which we are going to take in a little while.

The noble Lord asked me two specific questions. The first concerned the Holroyd Report, and the noble Lord's other question was whether the Government were satisfied that the best arrangements possible were being made for training now to be concentrated at the Fire Service College at Moreton-in-Marsh so that standards would be maintained and enhanced. So far as the first question is concerned, the noble Lord is right. The Holroyd Report, in essence, suggested that the college board with broadened membership should be given powers akin to governing bodies of polytechnics and colleges of further education; but, as this type of power was seen at that time as being more appropriate to the advisory nature of the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Councils, no direct action was taken on that recommendation.

The Joint Training Committee of the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Councils has fulfilled the function so far as training content is concerned. The noble Lord specifically mentioned the question of syllabuses and the importance of central direction—not a usual term in British educational circles—of the content of the training in the fire service. This is one of the functions of the Joint Training Committee of the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Councils. Therefore, the Holroyd recommendation was never pursued by the local authorities or the other representative bodies on the CFBAC. During its lifetime, the college board was content with its existing role, while the Joint Training Committee assumed an increasing role in respect of its responsibilities.

Perhaps it is important to repeat the fact that the representatives on the Joint Training Committee are precisely the same, so far as representation is concerned. They are representatives of the local authorities, the Home Office and the fire service, which were to be found on the college board, with the addition (on the Joint Training Committee) of that important body, the Institution of Fire Engineers, who are to be found on the JTC but who were not on the college board. So far as the arrangements made at the college are concerned, the training has been—and this is not part of the Bill—concentrated. Careful attention was given to ensuring the minimum interference with the existing arrangements for training and that a suitable environment was provided in which to preserve the integrity and excellence of the higher training courses previously provided at Dorking. In the event, it has been possible to provide a full range of facilities to accommodate higher training in Moreton-in-Marsh without detracting from the standards and levels of technical training provided before the transfer. The existing accommodation has been adapted to provide syndicate rooms, closed circuit television, a command theatre, all separated from other courses at the newly-named Fire Service College, and, in addition, library facilities, a quiet room, known as the "Dorking Room", with furnishings and other items from Wotton House, and a senior officers' bar have all been provided.

It is important to say that, although the two forms of training are concentrated at the Fire Service College at Moreton, they are conducted separately. I believe that that is right, and I am sure the fire service believe that it is right. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary and I have seen these facilities, and my right honourable friend and I both feel they are the best we can provide and that they should, if possible, enhance training at the college.

Finally, these arrangements will be kept under review. There is every indication at present that training in the fire service will continue at the same high level as before the transfer. I hope that those comments have answered the questions asked by the noble Lord.

On Question, Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.