HL Deb 14 December 1981 vol 426 cc8-13

2.56 p.m.

Lord Carrington

My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to make a Statement about events in Poland.

Martial law was declared in Poland from midnight on 12th/13th December. A Military Council for National Salavation, consisting of military leaders, has been set up under the Prime Minister and Party Secretary, General Jaruzelski. Military commissars have been appointed to oversee central and local government. Other steps taken include sealing of the borders, severing of telex and telephone links, imposition of a curfew, suspension of civil liberties, a ban on strikes and gatherings other than religious ceremonies, a takeover of the broadcasting system and suspension of regional broadcasts.

General Jaruzelski announced these measures in a speech broadcast to the Polish people early on 13th December. He stressed that they were intended to be of short duration and would be rescinded when calm and order were restored. He said the measures were intended to preserve the fundamentals of the Polish "Renewal" and that reforms would be continued. We regard these commitments as very important.

There are no reports of danger to the safety of members of the British community in Poland. The British Embassy is in touch with British nationals and as a precautionary measure has advised them to stay at home. This advice has also been broadcast, at the Government's request, on the BBC World Service.

Her Majesty's Government are following developments with the closest attention and with great concern We are, and shall remain, in close consultation with our partners in the Ten and in the North Atlantic Alliance. The next few days would appear to be of critical importance to the future of Poland. We sincerely hope that the Polish Government and people will be able to resolve their problems without bloodshed, by compromise and consensus. We shall observe a policy of strict non-intervention and we expect the same of all signatories of the Helsinki Final Act.

2.59 p.m.

Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe

My Lords, the House will be most grateful to the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary for his Statement, because the whole House and indeed the whole country are deeply concerned at the very grave situation in Poland today, and none of us would wish to say anything which could contribute to the dangers of the situation.

We very much welcome what the noble Lord has said about strict non-intervention from all sides, from anywhere in the world. The gallant Polish nation must decide their own destiny. Equally, we in this country cannot be indifferent to their fate. We very much welcome what the noble Lord quoted from General Jaruzelski, that reforms would be continued, which is obviously of great importance.

I do not propose to ask many questions in such a grave situation, but I think the House will regret a little that the noble Lord made no reference to the financial position, which is of the greatest possible importance. As the Financial Times said last week, the negotiations which are taking place about this with the Polish authorities are proceeding with painful slowness, and we surely cannot afford to let that continue. We should be grateful for some observation by the noble Lord on that. May we also ask him about the position of Polish refugees in other countries? Of course, we understand that the frontiers are now sealed, but can something be done to help the other countries who are looking after the Polish refugees?

Lord Gladwyn

My Lords, we, too, should like to thank the Foreign Secretary for this important Statement on this grave situation. For my part, I cannot see how the Government could possibly act otherwise than is suggested in the Statement. Is it not a fact that the present desperate economic situation in Poland —against which Solidarity not unnaturally revolted, claiming, no doubt rightly, that the Communist Government was largely responsible—is also largely due to the world recession and to the consequent failure of the programme of industrial development, which has now been financed by western banks to the tune of, I think, 27 billion dollars or £15 billion? The repudiation of this debt would obviously be a world calamity and we must all hope that it can still be averted, but it comes nearer and nearer as the crisis in Poland worsens.

The present choice is apparently between some kind of military dictatorship and anarchy, or even civil war. Should we not therefore all hope that Solidarity will still be able to come to some agreement with General Jaruzelski—who seems on the whole, from what one hears, to be a reasonable man—enabling therefore the debt to be eventually rescheduled, and incidentally all danger of Russian intervention to be avoided, even if on the face of it this would not, from our point of view, be a particularly democratic solution to a grave crisis?

Lord Carrington

My Lords, I am grateful to both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, and I agree entirely with what the noble Baroness has said. I did not mention the financial position, although I think that all of us—and it was certainly evident in the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn— recognise that the economic position of Poland is extremely serious indeed. I think we shall all have to think and wait and see what happens in Poland before we make up our minds what it is desirable or possible to do.

With regard to the world recession, this of course has had some effect upon the Polish economic position; but if you look at the situation in Poland it stems to a very large extent from the enormous drop in coal production in Poland itself, which has meant that the earnings in foreign currency of Poland abroad have dropped, and have been mainly the cause of the economic problems which Poland is faced with. The noble Baroness asked me about Polish refugees. I know of no Polish refugees in this sort of circumstance, but if the noble Baroness will let me know exactly what she has in mind I shall certainly look into it.

3.4 p.m.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary for this Statement and welcoming also the closing remarks in it, at a moment when this is happening in Poland the only way one can restrain one's horror and despair about it is to remember that it is probably an alternative to something worse, and therefore we must join the Foreign Secretary in his hopes that the Poles work out their destiny by themselves.

We also welcome the reported statement from Moscow that this is an internal Polish affair. Could the Foreign Secretary tell the House something else about the 27 billion dollar debt to the West which Poland has incurred? Are the Government satisfied with the arrangement they have for liaison with British banks and institutions? Are they satisfied with the arrangements they have for liaison with other western Governments with regard to their banks and institutions which have contributed to these loans which are now in such a questionable condition?

Lord Carrington

My Lords, with regard to what the noble Lord said, and indeed to what the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, said about hoping that Solidarity will be able to come to some compromise with the Government, I think we would all hope that that were possible and that the gains that have been made over these last years are maintained. With regard to the rescheduling of debts, of course what happens is primarily for the commercial banks themselves, but we do have very good liaison with them. I think before we make any statement about that, or give any indication of how we think private banks should proceed, or give them any advice, we had better wait and see what happens in Poland.

Lord Derwent

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend one question: Are we having any difficulties from the fact that our ambassador is seriously ill in hospital in Warsaw? As I understand it, as he is in Warsaw, no other member of the embassy has right of access to the Polish Government.

Lord Carrington

My Lords, it is extremely unfortunate and sad that the ambassador should have had a serious heart attack. I am happy to say that he is getting better, but he is in hospital and of course we are deprived of his judgment and his advice. But I am glad to say, too, that there is a very efficient second-in-command there, and he had an hour's talk with the deputy Foreign Minister yesterday, so I do not think there is any question of being deprived of access to the Polish Government.

Lord Oram

My Lords, on the question of refugees to which the noble Lord referred, has not the Austrian Government indicated that the burden that it is bearing in relation to the refugees now in Austria has become more than it can bear? Has it not said that other countries ought to help? Have the British Government received any request in this respect and, if so, what response do they propose to make?

Lord Carrington

No, my Lords, there has been no request.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, can my noble friend yet tell the House whether the closing of the frontiers to foreigners has had the effect of stopping food and other essential supplies from voluntary international sources? If that is the case, will the Government do their best to maintain essential supplies to Poland during the winter, because this could not possibly be regarded as intervention in the internal affairs of the country?

Lord Carrington

My Lords, I think it is far too soon to say whether or not the restrictions have prevented food coming into Poland. I would imagine that these would be very temporary restrictions in the form of ships not being allowed to berth at Polish ports, for obvious reasons. I think we have to examine all of these things, but I have never thought it a good idea to try to starve people out, and if food is to go to a country to help the people, it seems to me that it should go.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in the debate we had on this matter in this House last week the noble Lord, Lord Home, and the noble Lord, Lord Stewart, and others pressed the Government to take some action to assist British voluntary organisations, Church bodies, and that sort of organisation, in the present difficulties which they are encountering in getting desperately needed food and medical supplies through to Poland? Is he aware that many of us would be extremely reassured were he able to take a personal interest in this matter?

Lord Carrington

My Lords, I really do not think that this is the moment to do that. I think we must wait and see what is going to happen.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, in the situation that exists at the moment, which could be almost disastrous if there were any foolhardy statements, is the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary aware that thinking people, certainly in this country, will approve wholeheartedly of his cool, sensible Statement in this House today? Would the noble Lord use his influence to see that other people that he might be engaged with in other countries copy his example, so that we can with patience perhaps make a contribution to having this situation resolved without any foolhardiness which might, rather than resolve it, only exacerbate it?

Lord Carrington

My Lords, to use the slang phrase, the noble Lord seems to have "wrapped it up

Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe

My Lords, after that I am sorry to rise again, but may I ask the noble Lord a final question? One entirely understands his hesitation—nobody quite understands what is going on at the moment. But about the financial position, would it not be prudent for the Ten, including ourselves, with the Americans, to be considering what we might do, provided that the Polish Government can still negotiate with us, on this financial point? Surely it should not be left to the banks alone but should be a matter for Government assistance.

Lord Carrington

The noble Baroness misunderstands the position, my Lords. The private banks have to make up their own minds, but there is a lot of debt which is Government debt which we have agreed to reschedule; it has been agreed over a period of time to reschedule it. I shall be meeting this evening the other Foreign Ministers of the Community over dinner, when we shall be discussing other matters, but we shall be talking about this matter and will have an opportunity then to discuss all these things. Of course, all this has been going on over a period of time and it is only a question whether we go on as we were going to go on or whether events in Poland will make it difficult for us to do so.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, while I welcome the Minister's Statement and the suggestions which have been made from all parts of the House, may I ask whether he will be available to keep us in touch with the changing situation while the House is meeting?

Lord Carrington

I shall be available, my Lords, so long as the noble Lord is available and the House is in Session.